4.27.2008

Personal Reflections on the Current Controversy: Part 5

I think some personal reflections might be in order at this point. I tried to go to sleep earlier but felt compelled to communicate some things I have been thinking about lately. Maybe I could try to bring some clarity to this current controversy. Maybe I could try to boil some things down so that we do not lose sight over what this is all about and thus avoid unnecessary rabbit trails, hearsay, and somewhat of a witch hunt.

The internet truly is an interesting and amazing thing. We have the immediate search power of Google to find information, people, and writings in the matter of seconds. We can create a community of people from all over the world. We can bring together scattered bits and pieces of information into one forum for the world to see. In many ways it is like the tongue, it has the power to create and the power to destroy. What has occurred in this here blog and several others over these last weeks is something I never foresaw. How did this all start? What was my purpose in posting the things I have?

I know that many people out there, many of my old friends, are probably very angry with me. As I write this, it is currently 10:30 PM. I noticed that everything over at biblicalthought.com has been taken down. I was speaking with a brother on the phone a couple days ago and he predicted that such would happen. And for the record, as God is my witness, I have only made ONE phone call to another brother about this. There is no doubt that many people have called me, but I have called only one person and that was almost two weeks ago now. I have been in email conversations with a number of brothers, but that was primarily to make sure I had my facts straight and to seek council before posting certain things. Here is the God-honest truth: this whole controversy was NOT a consciously organized secret council of angry people who maliciously plotted to attack Bob Morey. The following analogy is more accurate to what has happened. Remember in the movie, Terminator 2, the bad cop who was sent to take out Arnold? That cop had the ability to morph into anyone he touched; he was essentially made out of a liquidly type substance. At one point Arnold somehow blows him up and he explodes globs of silver blobs that look like melted solder. But what happened next? At the time, the special effects were amazing, but all the silver globs that were scattered in the street began rolling back toward the center and eventually all of them merged together to reform the bad cop. I know, the analogy makes the “other side” (i.e. ex-FCC members) the bad cop, but we are not bad. That is essentially what has happened in this current outbreak and controversy. Essentially, Dr. Bob Morey blew people up who are part of the body of Christ. He blew many people up over many years. Yet he does it in such a way that most all these people just want to get the heck away and start over fresh. Even then, he often makes this very difficult for people to do. What has happened these last weeks is those blown up bits of people all on their own accord merging back together and creating a voice.

The internet has provided the means for some of these scattered bits and pieces to come together. People began to talk and stories began to be shared. Visible patterns of abuse and sin done by Dr. Morey began to emerge and become more evident. The DVD’s from his Pennsylvania days hit the internet. While I mentioned them, I had nothing to do with putting them on the web. The link to them was then posted in my blog as well as at BT blog, both times by people I do not even know. The controversy made it into the OC Weekly blog. I have no idea how it got in there, though I know that Mr. Arellano is not a big fan of Dr. Morey so who knows how he heard about it. But things took off over there as well. Other information came together and soon there were tentacles all over the place, like a game of shoots and ladders, people could slide from this place to that with a click, click, click. Clark’s Open Letter to Dr. Robert Morey was thus brought to public attention along with my resignation letter. But this merely describes how a spark turned into a wild fire. But what was that spark again?

For me a renewed interest in Morey began with this most recent exodus of people from the church. When I left the church in 2007, I did so quietly. I did not make one phone call or email to anyone in that church after that. I was not “burned” by Morey. My letter explains clearly why I left, and at that time, as I said, the last straw that broke this camels back was how Morey burned a good friend of mine, Clark Gallagher. Clark was Dr. Morey’s closest assistant and his “Timothy” (in Dr. Morey’s own words when he ordained us). Dr. Morey utterly vilified Clark from the pulpit on a Sunday morning. He had done it also to others before Clark. So recently, when I heard about this most recent exodus of people and more so the people that were vilified this time, well, that both shocked me and angered me (note: not bitterness!). It was a righteous anger, an anger based on justice. I have already at length in these posts described some of these people and how much they sacrificed for Dr. Morey, his ministry, and his vision (and of course by saying this I mean they did it ultimately for Christ). Let this third exodus serve as the “third witness” that really made Morey’s behavioral patterns evident. But that was not all: the DVD’s surfaced showing the same patterns of behavior dating back over a decade ago. Moreover, an email was received from an ex-member of Morey’s church back in PA and this person described the same behavioral patterns that so many are speaking out against now. Individual persons have also sent me their resignation letters from years ago, and again, the same patterns of odd behavior were used to deal with these people (mini exoduses).

Some people have made speculations about this or that. I have myself tried to stay away from any speculative assumptions and have urged any readers or commentors to do the same. There are enough witnesses and facts that speculative ideas are not even needed. In fact, as Clark pointed out in one comment, such speculation undermines what we do know. I have listed names, places, and events. Most of these people would not mind to be contacted. There are many people who left who I have not mentioned, mostly because I did not have their permission to list their names. However, the persons I have listed should be sufficient to open eyes. The pattern Dr. Morey uses is seen in each mass exodus as well as many individual persons (though I would add it is not the only pattern of abuse that could be mentioned). It is essentially this:

1. A dedicated person in the ministry who learns too much about the shady practices opens his or her mouth and dares to question things.

2. The person is either ignored by Morey or a Kangaroo court is set up where the legitimate questions are ignored and the concerned person has things flipped on him and is made to feel as though they are in sin.

3. Accusations of “slander and gossip” and later “bitterness” are slapped on the concerned person. “Slander and gossip” are Morey’s two favorite “flip-it” smoke-screen tactics.

4. The concerned person who dared to question is said to be under the influence of Satan and their mental health is questioned.

5. When they try to fight these absurd claims they are then labeled with “anger,” “pride,” “bitterness,” and even “hatred.”

6. When the situation goes public–usually by Morey’s doing from the pulpit–certain “evidences” are made up that allegedly beyond doubt proves the guilt of the concerned person. Never mind that no one has ever seen any of this “evidence” against any of these people. Morey has such a cult like following that most people believe him. Then the church buys it. Then the person is delivered over to Satan if they still persist to clear their name or call Morey on his unbiblical dealings.

7. Morey cuts off all communication lines with the person and will have nothing to do with them based on a faulty application of Titus 3:10.

8. The “burned” person leaves and just wants to get on with their life, but they have lost all their friends at the church as well as their previously solid reputation because they were vilified from the pulpit.

9. Then over time, the people of the church forget all about it. New people come in who know nothing about it and new leaders are raised up to run the church and ministry for Dr. Morey. The cycle then repeats itself. That is why I am concerned for this current batch of Moreyites. But it is because time and new faces in the church that these old scandals fade away and when a new one happens like the one just recently, many people either forget about most of what happened in times past, or the new faces know nothing of them. Also when one person goes through this “ringer” and suffers these same tactics, he or she is just that–one person, against the “renown” Dr. Robert A. Morey and all that goes with him. Who would most people believe, a common Christian man or woman who says Morey lied and slandered me, or would most people believe the Doctor who has spent his life preaching orthodox theology and defending the faith? He who has the microphone controls the situation. However, microphones are quite an antiquated invention these days, and this thing called the internet is quickly turning down the microphones of many pulpit bullies.

This last “slam job” on some really good Christians moved me to take action. Yet this action did not come about in any consciously planned out way by me. Upon first hearing of the ridiculous and evil accusations that were made against Tom Maxham, I did nothing. This all started when I emailed that old friend at FCC for something unrelated to all this, but in closing I asked him how he is able to make sense out of the fact that the leadership of that church almost always ends up leaving and almost always ends up with some crazy story/accusation slapped on them. He said from his point of view, Dr. Bob has done nothing but good for them and made them what they are, and they all left (which would include myself) because of pride. I felt compelled to try to set the record straight and remain silent no more. I emailed him a three page reply. That reply got back to Morey and viola, Morey and “the crew” at BT launched the most ruthless assault I have ever seen in my 12 years of being a born again Christian. I have documented much of that abuse of the brethren here in these last four posts. The many commentors have added much substance to back up those posts.

Dr. Morey uses smoke-screen tactics, red herrings, ad hominem attacks, and straw men arguments against those who dare question him in any way. He twists Scriptures like Matthew 18, 1 Tim. 5:19, and Tit. 3:10 to protect himself from questioning. He blasts his double barrel shotgun of “gossip and slander” charges. He repeats this so phrase so often that if you re-read all the blogs over there, “the crew” now uses that same phrase. Though the post on the Need for Biblical Warrant is now removed as I type. Then those who have sought to call him out into the light are viewed as malicious gossips and wicked slanderers used by the devil. This is another discernable pattern that he often uses. Getting people to think that the one questioning things is mentally ill is also another favorite of his. The problem, however, is that he uses these tactics so often that it allows these patterns to become evidently discernable. It is these patterns of abuse that span over many years that we are now exposing to the light (Eph. 5:11; 1 Tim. 5:20). When the voices get too loud, Dr. Morey moves to censor them and tell his congregation not to listen to the voice. But this move only makes him more suspect in people’s minds. People think, “what is he afraid of, what is out there, why doesn’t he want me to read this or that?”

When I posted my first “Abuse of Dr. Robert Morey” post, I did not in any way do it out of a spirit of malice, bitterness, or hatred, but rather on the one hand out of a sense of justice to blatant sin on the part of one who claims to be an elder, and on the other hand, out of a sense of love for my friends unjustly vilified and lied about. I cannot speak for the hearts and motives of all who have since commented on this site, but I know before God that my decision to post that first one was not easy. But after several extensions of mercy to that man, I felt a strong need to let justice at least have an opportunity to be had. It seems, at least in some measure, to be seizing that opportunity. Many good people remain silent for many reasons. They may fear retribution from the abusive leader; they may fear harm may come to the church, or they may fear that the process of moving on will be drawn out longer. But the bottom line is that many people remain silent because of some fear. And it may not even be abused people, it may be people who left because they saw an unloving shepherd, because they saw a misuse of Scripture, because they saw a poorly run church, etc. But they too have a story and a testimony to tell as well.

Let me at this point try to bring some things into focus. This whole thing has grown into a large amalgamation of criticisms, most in my opinion justified.

First, there are dozens and dozens of people who span at least two decades who are all saying that Dr. Robert Morey is guilty of virtually the same things. They are not, to my knowledge, claiming that he is guilty of adultery, of physical violence, or heresy. Rather, the almost universal drumbeat is that Dr. Morey is a dishonest man who lies and slanders not just unbelievers, but more dangerously, the body of Christ. This universal voice says that he uses people, manipulates them, and discards them in vicious ways when they question him. This universal voice says that he is shady and dishonest in his financial dealings. This universal voice says that he does not rule the church well, but rather uses it to his own advantage. Many of these voices say he is a downright thief. More could be said.

Second, these are real and serious issues that ought not to be tolerated. Yet they continue to one degree or another because Dr. Morey is a lone-ranger and there is no one to hold him accountable. These are sins which ought not to be overlooked, ignored, or forgotten about. But that is exactly what happens: sin is swept under the rug and eventually forgotten about. However, we chose now not to forget any longer–unless and until Bob Morey repents of these sins of which he himself knows. It is not a virtue to let evil have the day. Regardless of who said it, the idea behind the quote has become famous: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Dr. Laura recently said on the radio, “decent people are too often wimps.”

Third, Dr. Morey hides behind texts like 1 Tim. 5:19. But not only does he not quote the rest of the verse, he seems to forget that there are dozens of witnesses to his public slander and wild accusations made against good men of God. How many people were present when he publicly slandered and lied about Clark? How many people were present when he publicly slandered and lied about Tom and James? I could continue but it is getting late.

Fourth, it is crucial in all this to remember that Dr. Morey is NOT the victim! People will be furious with me and feel sorry for him because people like me are harming his ministry and reputation. Friends, brothers and sisters, he is the one who harms his reputation and many of you are the ones who are out there fighting so hard to repair it to the rest of the body of Christ. He is the one who makes very unwise and sinful moves against people or in running the church and thus he brings it upon himself. He is not the victim! The victims of his abuses, his slander, and his lies are numerous. Keep that in mind.

Fifth, Dr. Morey and his “crew” claim to have conclusive evidence to prove the guilt of these people. But guess what? No one ever gets to see this evidence. I made a public offer to come down to the church and see it. They denied me and said that I was publicly delivered over to Satan. It would have been nice to at least get something in the mail letting me know that this happened. Dustin Hoffman called the church many times to see the evidence, but no one called him back. Guess what again? They claimed to have such “secret evidence” against Clark, Javier, and others also. They probably have some on me too. I will be there as quick as I can to see it. The law says that the accused have the right to face their accusers and to see the evidence used to indite them. Let’s see it boys.

Sixth, if what we are all claiming is true, then Dr. Morey has disqualified himself as an elder. He thus operates under a false pretense, a false image. And if this is so, then 1 Tim. 5:19 does not even apply to him and he should step down from public ministry and stick to writing his books.

Finally, as I said, I know that many people will be angry with me for these posts, and many already are. But again, he is not the victim here. Look to history for the real victims of his dealings. Look to the dozens and dozens of people who speak out with a unified voice to his patterns of sin and abuse. All I have done here is open my mouth a few times and give a voice to others to do the same. The actions and reactions by Dr. Morey and his “crew” through these last weeks has demonstrated and undergirded much of what so many are complaining about–essentially, a serious lack of real love. I would encourage readers of this to read my last comment on Part 4 to see more of my heart and feelings right now. While Dr. Morey may dance with joy over the sufferings and ex-communication of fellow believers, this writer is saddened and grieved by both his many friends who experienced the abuses of Morey as well as simply feeling sad and sorry for Bob himself. And I am afraid for my few friends who are still there.

Let us not lose focus of the main issue and universal voice. The Bible says that there is one who is the father of lies and who accuses the brethren of all manner of evil to destroy their witness, reputation, ministries, and future. Sadly, there is a so called elder in Irvine California who imitates these ways.

31 comments:

Gustavo Arellano said...

I wrote about the deleted posts here:

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-that-oc-religion/biblicalthoughtcom-adeletin/

Lenny said...

Joel wrote: "... these are real and serious issues that ought not to be tolerated. Yet they continue to one degree or another because Dr. Morey is a lone-ranger and there is no one to hold him accountable. These are sins which ought not to be overlooked, ignored, or forgotten about. But that is exactly what happens: sin is swept under the rug and eventually forgotten about."

Joel, many will agree that you have said it so well. A lot of people actually feel the way you do, but in this case it seems God who has raised you up like Moses to speak out against this man subsequent to the recent exodus (following maxham and mulroney public attacks by morey).

Because robert morey's FCC church is unbiblical in that they disobeyed Scripture by not appointing elders that could hold him accountable for any sin he might commit, this enabled him to run the "show" as a lone ranger maverick. Many are smart enough to know that robert morey knew exactly what he was doing, that it was no accident - that the appointment of elders never happened. The disastrous results are evident for all to see as you have summarized. It was Robert morey who paved the way for his sins to come to light in the public eye. This is a situation of his own making. Since he didn't want to be dealt with within the church walls according to the Scripture, by default he chose to be examined in the public eye. If he had behaved according to Scripture, his dealings would not have found their way into the public eye via the internet. Again, the matters of issue (his lying, abuse... of good people) you write about are supposed to be dealt with within the church walls under the umbrella of Scripture.

But, in the interest of justice (eph. 5:11) and protecting, loving thy neighbors, people felt compelled to bring to light these matters in hope that others might escape the workings of this man.

I know that when I found out in 2005 this guy was taking uncounted offering cash home and holding it at his house, my stomach was sick and I could no longer look people in the face during church service. God made clear to me He would expose what was going on and bring it to light in His own way (which He did), but that when He did, i also had to do my part by confronting morey and crew-not a pleasant task. He made it clear to me that i could not simply walk away in selfishness, looking the other way, disregarding the interests of other FCC members.

When i asked them to change the process (by letter) to that of one of financial integrity like would be expected of any other church on the up-and-up, he refused. I was told to tell no one about their financial "process" or "else." In a meeting with morey and some of his crew to discuss said letter, i realized i was dealing with a fool who makes a mockery of matt. 18 process, misquotes Scripture etc. I experienced/ witnessed the things you describe in his "pattern of abuses," and realized there was no hope in dealing with him and his crew in an ethical manner. It seemed to me that money was on his heart and we all know the Scripture in Timothy about it being root of all sorts of evils. They seemed bent on doing it their way (the handling of cash offerings), "forget about Scripture and what would be right in God's sight." I asked God to reveal to me who this man really is and what he's about. God was faithful and has always been faithful to that prayer.

There were numerous disturbing things i witnessed at that church over a 4 year period, but learning of the financial process and how they inappropriately dealt with the situation was the last straw. Since i could not in good conscience remain a part of FCC (hebr. 13:17), nor be able to look people in face without a sick feeling in my stomach, i chose to resign, sending a resignation letter to morey, detailing what i felt were lies and idiocy regarding their defense of the financial process, and WHY THEY SAID IT COULDN'T BE CHANGED.

Subsequent to my leaving FCC, people here and there contacted me wanting to know why i hadn't been in touch with them, why i left, and whether there were things they needed to know (like might they be in danger of some kind attending fcc or is there something going on there that they need to know about affecting whether they continue on there or not). I never waged a mail campaign to contact on my own members of FCC. Anyone i was in contact with wanted to know where i was and why they haven't heard from me or why i left...). Now more people are learning that morey told lies about me and Javier from the pulpit, and has done so since about others. We knew at the time that he brought judgment on himself when he did that. His day was coming.

I've tried to stay out of the public eye on this matter since it appeared on your blogs. I wanted people to focus on the facts of the recent exoduses and not get distracted too much by what happened in my situation. How anyone could possibly fall for the allegation leveled against the Maxhams and Mulroneys is beyond belief. Many people are proud that you created a voice for people to shine the light on these matters. Many are standing behind you. Know that God is sovereign and He has allowed this to come to light the way it has. His sense of justice will prevail in this matter. People have told me essentially that in their heart, they know if/when the building sale closes and when morey or designated entity gets his cash, he'll be off to a new "venture." I don't think i could disagree with them. Having heard about the abuse pattern over the years, that would make perfect sense. I think God will have the last say in this matter. And we all need God's mercies and graces during the sanctification journey. Psalm 103 is a comfort. We'll just have to see what God will do in future days.

Joel Hughes said...

Thanks Lenny. Good words. I had a chance to read your own 10 page resignation letter and I was shocked by some of the things I learned. You worked there on staff and when you learned of the shady financial handlings, you tried to suggest a small change for better accountability. Essentially, Dr. Morey flipped it on you, accused you of being in sin, and dared accuse you of being mentally ill. Don't worry though, he has done that to quite a few people now.

My wife just came up with a very good point. I told her to read Morey's blog titled “Can Professing Christians Sue Each Other in Civil Court?” found at:

http://biblicalthought.com/blog/can-professing-christians-sue-each-other-in-civil-court/#comment-4780

(they will probably take it down now after this). However, Morey gives an example of when you have a moral obligation to take another brother to court:

RM: Example: The book keeper of a church stole church money and, when caught, argued that the church could not sue her or turn her in to the police because she is a Christian! The church turned her over to the police and sued her in court to get back the money she stole.

Again Morey says:
The conclusion: When one professing Christian defrauds another professing Christian in a civil or criminal action, it is the duty of the victim to take civil action to remedy the issue.

Joel says:
I tried to post this question to them on their blog:
"Dr. Morey, wouldn’t this mean, if you are consistent, that you should take Tom Maxham to court since you publicly said that he was stealing money from the ministry?"

However, as usual, my comment is not going up at this time and probably will never go up. I have it all saved though. It is also curious that this particular blog came out right around the time that Morey ousted James and Tom. Maybe the blog was up before he publicly accused Tom of stealing funds from the ministry.

Joel Hughes
A.K.A, Gutter Sparrow
A.K.A, Reformed Pappa

Lenny said...

Joel, i don't know what's going on, but since 12:38 pm today, there's been 7 attempts to hack into my pc. The last one occurred about 3 minutes ago. Has anyone else experienced this? the s/w gives you the computer address of the hacker so if this happens to anyone, save that information.

Joel Hughes said...

I will keep that in mind Lenny. I do most of my work on all this from work (off the clock or on lunch usually). But it would not be wise to try to get my work computer for two reasons. I work at an international software company with annual revenue close to a billion dollars. It would take an utter pro to get through this place. Second, it would be a big federal crime to attempt so, and believe me, they would be instantly traced and prosecuted.

Anonymous said...

Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market place, and cried incessantly: "I seek God! I seek God!"---As many of those who did not believe in God were standing around just then, he provoked much laughter. Has he got lost? asked one. Did he lose his way like a child? asked another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? emigrated?---Thus they yelled and laughed

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes. "Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him---you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

"How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us---for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto."

Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars---and yet they have done it themselves.

It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?"

Nietzsche:
Parable of the Madman

Lenny said...

Joel, thanks for the reinforcement. I suppose i could mention that when i first wrote letter to the requesting a simple change to the money handling process, i specifically stated to them i was not trying to "sink the FCC ship," but wanted a process in place that would be beyond reproach, that both IRS and Big 8 auditors would approve of, not to mention church financial responsibility organizations. For dear friend and attendee of FCC had told me that if ever audited, make sure you aren't associated with that corrupt money handling process or you could be in trouble possibly.

To build on this, since in the Scripture (Psalms) it says that the God who made the eyes and ears see and hears all, i asked that a process be put in place to ensure no would could possibly question if any funny was being done with the money. After all, did these people actually think they could hide from the all-knowing One True God? We know that when they were trying to hide what they were doing
(don't tell anyone or well make trouble for you...), that Prov. 28:1 speaks to this. Thieves or people up to no good try to hide things because of their guilty conscience, not wanting anyone to know what they are up to and the subsequent implications.

We know God takes seriously if there is "sin in the camp." God had showed me pretty clearly that there was something not right at FCC, thus it was not surprising at the bumpy road FCC traveled on.
Further, i had read in MacArthur's book (Ashamed of the Gospel it think it was) at how seriously God considers corruption and wrongdoing in the churches, where worship of God is supposed to be occurring.

To me this was no accident that God kept showing to me many things to help put the puzzle together. It was only by His grace that He made it all the more clear to me that something was seriously amiss at FCC. I felt like He was giving me no choice but to do my part in requesting that things either be done righteously or that i would have to resign, which i stated in letter. For fearing man was not an option, but being true to God at such a time as that was paramount.

I know there are more who wish to speak out, but some have remained silent so that Morey would not ruin there name, thus people might not contact them to find out what's really going on in the FCC building (since morey would discredit their testimony). Instead, God has used them to reveal to some people who bravely contacted them, the issues which then gave light to some to leave FCC.

When people started finding out that robert morey really didn't have a DMin in apologetics from Westminster (something he claimed for years, but it was a more general degree), that his Islamic Invasion book allegedly contains sloppy scholarship, that he couldn't possibly have read all the works on Islam in the Library of Congress as he so often claimed when preparing his Islamic Invasion book, that the community at large apparently doesn't consider him a biblical scholar (that was a self-proclaimed title by him and staff), that seminary students refuse to footnote his books etc. in papers because of his tarnished reputation, that one person after another was catching him in lies as they investigated on their own whether to stay at the church or not... it really caused many of us to wonder at how we had been fooled for so long and not seen schemes for what was really going on. His teaching is orthodox but i guess we all got caught up in the lust for knowledge and assumed everything else had to be above board as well. Wow, how wrong we all were.

Joshua said...

Wow. Great work Joel and Lenny. Joel, you've set the record straight with this article and outlined exactly why all of this is taking place to begin with. So many of the kool-aid crew fail to understand that those who were abused by Bob are the victims and not the other way around. What you have written above explains exactly why we are here - for legitimate, biblical reasons.

Lenny, your testimony about Bob's deliberate mishandling of the church funds is not merely an "internet rumor" as some might assert. I remember when you, Javier, etc. were demonized and slandered from the pulpit. Yet again, the very same things that Bob was being accused of were attributed to you who revealed his sin. The day Bob did so was also the day he ADMITTED (in front of the congregation) to taking all of the offerings straight to his home. His lame excuse was that he was "the only one with a safe". Couln't he have used some of the fortune they were making off that "Crusaders Club" scam to buy a $300 safe? Couldn't he have given his safe to someone else for it to be stored in their house? Does it really take years and years to buy someone a safe? The safe could've been bought in a matter of days. Of course, these questions are all rhetorical given the fact that I know the safe excuse is an obvious smokescreen. It is painfully obvious what was going on. Again, Bob the mafia don used a kangaroo court to threaten you into submission. He foolishly attempted to get you to keep silent. I cannot believe how many times he has tried this.

Well Bob, the jig is finally up. Your dictatorial, predatory reign over God's people is finally coming to an end. The sovereign God is exposing you as we speak.

Lenny said...

Josh wrote: "The day Bob did so was also the day he ADMITTED (in front of the congregation) to taking all of the offerings straight to his home. His lame excuse was that he was "the only one with a safe".

Josh, thanks for the support. When i discussed with bob the money handling before my letter to them, bob used the excuse that the "Russell" brothers in texas had ripped him off and that he didn't trust anyone, so that's why he brought it home. We've now come to find out it was the Wessel brothers, but guess he didn't want us tracking them down so he said "Russell" brothers.

And wasn't it revealed in the Wessel audio CDs that Bob has used that tactic again and again to get people to go along with the con. i.e., according to testimony, he'd tell the "mark," "the previous guys i was dealing with ripped me off." So the next "mark" would offer to help him. only after he was done using and abusing them, he'd then tell the next mark, "the previous guy was ripping me off."

In the meeting, i was given a few other reasons as to why he had to take it home. One pastor termed them lies! The likely reason he had to admit to the congregation he was taking the $ home was because he realized a few people had read my resignation letter. In hindsight it appears he schemed that only an act of desperation (demonizing me and javier before the church and dictating a cutting off of ALL contact with us) could immediately stop the spreading of the TRUTH about the $ handling process. When Javier and i were demonized, it was extremely painful. When so-called friends refused further contact with us, it was very traumatizing.

At least now you gave me a laugh. When i read your words "crusader club scam," i laughed and spit all over the keyboard. i recall a couple of attendees when they learned of the cru club, they thought it was not right in God's sight and used it as one reason they stopped attending.

Nicki said...

Lenny,

Thank you for coming forward with your "Eye Witness" testimony. Here is yet another example of the shady dealings of Dr. Bob. If only we knew the Truth at the time, or if only we saw the Truth. God has his reasons why he is choosing to reveal a lot of this now. May the Lord continue to be Glorified in all that we say and do.

Nicki

Lenny said...

thanks nicki. believe it or not, support from a few of the saints at this time is actually comforting. When i first met with dr. bob on the issue of bringing more accountability to the financial process, he flipped it on me saying that i'm the problem and warned not to tell anyone or else... It was very painful to go through something like that. i had a lot of anger for a while - "how could they be acting this way. why? what is really going on here? are they hiding something?" I think some people saw what i went thru and chose not to even try matt. 18 with them (they viewed it as not genuine), leaving in silence rather than go thru that same meatgrinder, which is understandable.

Did want to clarify the text of earlier posts on eldership. This is confusing topic for me and other people have commented on the subject of FCC not having elders. I meant to say the issue was that because there were no FCC elders or an overseeing church, there was no process in place to bring accountability to dr. morey should such an occasion arise. That's why it seems things spilled over into the public and dr. bob paved the path for that it by not getting that taken care of. Some feel that technically it may not be a sin to not have elders at a particular point in time. If John Piper left Minnesota to plant a church in Los Angeles, he might not have elders at church start-up. It might be something he'd work to achieve in the short term. During the interim, he'd want to have his old church in Minnesota oversee his new church operations to ensure accountability. This link has a view on eldership as one opinion. There are other views out there.

http://www.evbc.org/evbc/Ministries/AllChurch/eldership.pdf

At FCC, they had an eldership class as joel wrote, so it appeared they were working towards it. But as we know people have expressed, some felt it was more a shell game, that maybe dr. bob wasn't really all that serious about making it ever happen. That he really didn't want accountability for reasons of his own. but that's a diversion somewhat. the real issue are the things joel and others brought to light (the things done to people, lies, etc).

BTW, does anyone know who ordained dr. bob? Some people have checked into it and have not been able to track that information down, expressing concern that they don't even know who did the ordaining. He was a very talented man. It's a shame his career took the direction it did.

Also, wanted to say the write-up Mike R. did to Mario was very good and reinforcing and good reminder to read.

Joe M said...

Lenny,

"When people started finding out that robert morey really didn't have a DMin in apologetics from Westminster (something he claimed for years, but it was a more general degree)."

Just to clarify, he did graduate with a D.Min in 1) church ministry 2) counseling, etc. BUT not Apologetics.

I am wondering if he thought that people are that stupid?

D.Min in Apologetics from Westminster

Ph.D in Islam from an unaccredited school which has no Islamic Studies department.

D.D from Pakistan which later got revoked (how shameful).

Would anyone believe me if I told you I got a Master's degree from California Biblical University & Seminary in Physics? The school exist, though not accredited. The degree is real. But when found out, it is a Master's in Biblical Apologetics but the thesis was focus on Evangelizing Scientist. And now I am an expect in physics!

Anonymous said...

Gustavo Arrellano has written a blog part 4 over at OC Weekly on Dr. Morey.

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-that-oc-religion/robert-morey-has-indoctrinated/

It looks like Dr. Morey has also taken down all the lectures on eldership that were on his site. I have them all saved though.

Gustavo Arellano said...

Anon 4:40: Can you please email me at GArellano@ocweekly.com? Anonymity guaranteed!

Anonymous said...

No it looks like all the elder audio is still there under lectures.Works for me at least on Firefox fwiw.

Anonymous said...

The lectures are still on the Faith Defenders site, but no longer on the FCC site.

Lenny said...

Josh, when dr. morey admitted to taking the money home and hoarding it in a safe, did he address why cash from offerings wasn't being put in the bank like with a normal church? what appalled me at the time was they flat out admitted they had TWO sets of books. His books (which i never saw nor did they show them to me to build any confidence in what they were saying) i was told represented the loose cash kept at home from the offerings, which allegedly was used for his petty cash expenses. of course no one knows if the amount recorded on his books matched the actual amount in the offerings since no one ever counted up the offering cash. The church books represented cash in sealed envelopes, checks and i suppose other monies/income. if you didn't catch it before, the $ he took home never did get deposited in the church bank account from what i was told at that time. What would people think if they found out John MacArthur, Chuck Swindoll, john piper or even the local catholic priest had standing orders that the ushers not count the loose cash money in the offerings, then they took the loose cash from offerings home and hoarded it there and it never found it's way to the church bank account? How long do you think their ministry would survive if people found out they were doing something like that? What if people found out the bank president ordered tellers not to count incoming cash deposited by customers, then took it home to keep in his safe? Would anyone stand for such a practice? One of reasons they said they didn't deposit money in bank was because wells fargo charges them to deposit cash into the business account. then find a new bank or bite the bullet and do what God expects is what church members would say? BTW, I resigned end of september '05 over this and they didn't change that process until sometime in 1Q or 2Q 2007 until apparently, they suspected people might have gotten hold of my resignation letter that discussed the financial process.

lenny said...

correction, they changed process sometime in 1Q or 2Q 2006

Joshua said...

Lenny:

"Josh, when dr. morey admitted to taking the money home and hoarding it in a safe, did he address why cash from offerings wasn't being put in the bank like with a normal church?"

I do not remember that even being addressed. He acted as though it was a common practice for a church to put this money in a home safe. I do recall him saying something about supposedly putting it in a church bank account during the week.

And yes, the process wasn't changed until sometime in 2006. This was the time period that I heard these issues discussed from the pulpit. One of Morey's favorite tactics is to immediately change whatever someone has exposed as soon as word has gotten out to the congregation. For example, Morey all of a sudden (after eight years without any) preaches a series on elders and acts as though he is actually going to appoint some after he hears about Joel's email being sent to a member of his church. Likewise, Morey changes the money situation only after he finds out that some in the congregation know about your complaints. This way, he will point to his recent activity and act as though it refutes the charges being leveled against him.

Joel Hughes said...

The same is true of the first batch of deacons. I read one resignation letter from someone who used to work for the ministry and he complained also about there be no elders or even deacons. Shortly thereafter, what do you know, Morey installed deacons, of which I was one of them. But as I showed already, he had virtually no idea who was being made deacons or for what reason. Cindy and Anne Morey had most all the say as to who made it on the initial deacon list and who was cut. According to someone who worked there for many years alongside Bob, my name was cut but he fought to get it back on. But bottom line, he did not make changes to the shady money or the deacons until sufficient force and threat of exposure was placed upon him. There has been enough talk about no elders there that I expect that soon there will be one or two made. But what I hear is that the two men who are possible candidates are both yes men. One is a very old man who is part of the congregation and the other is a yes-man from his old church in PA. So he is flying in a possible elder that no one knows and who also knows no one in the church. I thought he taught that elders are to be raised up from the local body(?). We will have to wait and see. Or just as likely we will never see any elders if he can successfully sweep this whole thing under the rug and cause the people to forget that anything ever happened.

Anonymous said...

It unfortunately looks like the sweeping under the rug has begun.It seems quiet on all fronts.My wife has been in contact with quite a few women still attending FCC, and they have no clue whats going on.It seems the only way to stop the guy would be some kind of legal indictment.I wonder why that never happened with the Wessels.Oh well Gods Sovereign.

lenny said...

Josh wrote: I do not remember that even being addressed. He acted as though it was a common practice for a church to put this money in a home safe. I do recall him saying something about supposedly putting it in a church bank account during the week.

Josh, i can imagine comedian Jay Leno saying to the audience, "Do you know mafia guys are now getting into the church business!" Yeah, guitto and givani are getting into running churches. Why you say? Well it seems that's it's common practice for church pastors to take home uncounted offering cash and keep it hoarded at their home in a safe? Apparently the mafia types see this as a new money skimming scheme they can work, tax free!...it's better than vegas!...chuckle, chuckle.."
when i made my inquiries at the time, i was specifically told that the money WAS NOT depositied in the bank (wells fargo) because the bank charged a small fee for depositing cash monies. Check with April and she can verify this, because it was she who i got this from. whether they changed that part after i left i don't know. my impression was that dr. morey must have rationalized the money process to certain staff members in a way they didn't see need at the time to push for greater accountability. guess we all make mistakes. but in my case, i knew God was revealing to me in different ways that something was amiss with fcc in general. i even remember someone on the staff praying at prayer meeting one time about "if sin in the camp via dr. bob and family...that it be resolved..." They were saying this in that maybe that's why so many wierd and troubling, bumpy road things were happening at fcc during that year. So even people there it seems suspected something wasn't kosher. thus myself, i did not want to let my name be associated with an irresponsible process. later, pastors told me i did right thing to resign, rather than be accessory.
we shouldn't be surprised if things swept under the rug. think of all the cults all that that survive over the years despite people leaving year after year upon learning the "truth" about the cult they were in. that's why some of those guys came up with those cult tactics lists to help people spot em. someone already posted these i think.

notice the orthodox teaching kind:
http://www.towerwatch.com/articles/identifying_a_cult.htm

http://www.towerwatch.com/articles/what_is_a_cult.htm

http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.html

lenny said...

josh, forgot to add that when speaking with april, she indicated it was dr. morey who DID NOT want to pay the wells fargo cash handling fee "supposedly" associated with depositing the cash from offerings into the bank. that was 1 of about 5 reasons they had for him taking it home. you can talk to joey and he can verify much of what i'm saying because he knew a lot of this before i even met with morey and crew after i had sent my letter to cindy asking process to be changed or i resign. however in joey's case, i think he and wife wanted to stay there for a while to see how things would play out. I think he left sometime in 2Q 2006. in javier's case, the SIN he committed was asking the ushers if it was true they didn't count the loose cash [before morey took home all the checks, loose cash, and cash in envelopes.] they confirmed to him it was not counted. he didn't even ask them about dr. morey taking it home. that never came up. he then asked dr. morey i think it was about the cult upstairs fcc was renting too. when dr. morey found out javier was asking these questions, he got put on the demonization list and u know what happened next. when i was in contact with them i told them it was up to them if they stay at fcc. do their own investigation and don't go by what i say. maybe God wanted them there for some reason, so i didn't tell them they definitely ought to leave, but that they do what they think God wanted them to do. but ask joey and javier about their stories for more. maybe they'll post some here?

Jim said...

Lenny,

I completely understand. Even though I was not on the “inside” I could see the tip of an iceberg of financial and organizational folly. Not to mention the Oneness Pentecostal group that was renting church space. How ironic, morey the apologist of all apologists was renting to a group that denies the Trinity! I suddenly became aware of the fate of those who approached leadership concerning misdealings. Joel did a fantasist job of characterizing the morey model of accusation and blame for detractors (mental imbalance, sin, etc.). Given that many well before me had seen exactly what I had seen and approached morey and then witnessing what happened to them, I simply sent my letter and departed very quietly. I know it has already been said, but it is simply amazing to see this same pattern emerge over the years and the reasons for the vast majority leaving this church can all be reduced to the same 6 or 7 reasons.

Joel Hughes said...

At this point things definitely seem to be "dying down" by way of smart design on Morey's side. The best move for him at this point is total silence, deletion, and censorship--complete extermination–of any hint that anyone has ever complained. This is a smart move on his part. The worst thing he did was try to go toe-to-toe with so many people who know so much about his ways. Every word he said was both exposed and used against him, and rightly so. I know at this point there might seem to be some frustration or even disappointment that things have died down and yet once again it will seem that he can get off scott-free for his lies, slander, and abuse. I would encourage all, however, to be patient and wait on the Lord. I mentioned in my last post that we will not forget. I feel a moral obligation to speak out and give justice that opportunity to have victory. Yet strategy is key in any battle or debate. Ultimately, as we know, God is the final judge and all hidden things will come to light one day. However, we also know, that God works through His ordained means which often involve the efforts of His saints. I believe at this point, a not so wise strategy for those who wish Morey to be exposed and held accountable would be to continue to launch small barrages against him in various ways, which, in many ways, will only help his story being “persecuted” and “attacked by Satan” to gain greater credence among his ardent followers. Yet I assure you that we will not forget. As I said on the OC Weekly blog, it appears that there is now “the calm before the storm.” But I then added: “but the waters are turning dark,” meaning there is yet a hurricane in the distance. What might this be? The storm will begin with a lightening flash unexpected; yet not random or hot, but strategic and methodical, carefully crafted. There is something in the horizon, something building like titanic clouds turning dark, growing ever closer to breaking under the pressure. What happens when a host of these dark clouds merge together to form one cloud and then suddenly drops its weight down on a rug covering years of scandal? Oh that rug will wash away in an instant exposing all the filth swept under it, and after those dark clouds break apart the sun will shine its bright light down on that place of naked deceit for all the world to see. Lord willing, justice will have its parade and the great king will be seen by all as having no clothes on. The calm does not bother me. The lightening will flash at a time that they do not expect.

MOSHER PERIODICAL said...

JOel,
Do not be discouraged, know that God is Sovereign, and this is one more warning among many who have acted in a semi-prophet role of rebuking Dr. Bob...there will be an exile period of Total defeat and exposure by God almighty if he does not repent...only God can save him, and when that time come, we will praise GOd for His justice, but also mourn, mourn for the sins, and mourn for Dr. Bob...sad really.

Joel Hughes said...

Amen Mosher. That you.

Joel Hughes said...

"Reformed Uncle" or anyone else out there, could you please email me a copy of the letter by Douglas Shenk that was read or given out by Morey at FCC? I emailed Mr. Shenk and asked for the original letter he sent out. He sent it to me. I would like to compare the one he sent me to the one that Morey gave out at FCC to see if there is any differences. Please contact me at:
theocentric7@yahoo.com

Anyone else who wishes to contact me directly is welcome to also at that address.

Lenny said...

Josh, suppose a need to clarify things alluded to earlier in posts re: fcc money handling of 2005. Hope this helps. Pray for everyone, graces and mercies from the Creator of heaven and earth.

As stated, when God first brought to light the fcc money take-home process, Pastor Morey phoned and said he was ripped off by the Russell brothers of Texas, and he doesn't trust anyone with the money, thus THE REASON for the process. From April I was told something different, that Pastor Morey didn't want to pay the (supposed) Wells Fargo cash-handling fee for cash deposits on business accounts. At the 9/27/05 meeting with dr. morey and crew, I was given 3 different reasons. What were they?

1. Pastor Morey in front of witnesses (9/27/05)stated that only he is legally accountable for handling the money based on how the organization is set up, and so the ushers cannot be asked to count the loose cash because if someone sued over theft of donated cash offerings, the ushers could be held accountable. Thus per him, ushers cannot be asked to count the loose cash, nor sign a document saying they are accountable if asked to count the loose cash.

In letter to them I simply said I needed to test my understanding here. i.e., If that’s the case, then why do volunteers in the bookstore and at conferences handle and count cash. They sign no documents saying they are accountable. Why do I, April, Cindy, Joe, Dorothy, Susan and others handle and count monies if only Dr. Morey is accountable? None of them sign documents of accountability.

Further, why do the ushers even touch money at all if only Pastor Morey can touch the money? Why are two ushers allowed to go into the back room and dump the baskets into the bank bag (a process that usually takes 2-5 minutes)? Might not someone sue, saying the ushers might be stuffing money into their pockets!!! Yet, they’ve signed no legal document.

If you’re saying you are accountable legally, but you’re delegating to all of these other people (when you allow them to handle monies), then why won’t you let the ushers count the money? Others do it in the FD organization!!! To cite legalities seems quite disturbing. There still has to be morals and processes in place that others feel would make the process above board. Should we cause others to stumble by not having such things (1 Corinthians 9:1-20)?

Why the inconsistencies? Yes, when a board is in place along with elders and deacons and the pastor no longer “touches” monies, then elders can sign for accountability since they will first touch it and be responsible for it. But there’s no reason ushers can’t count it right now since volunteers count it right now.

2. It was stated in the meeting by Dr. Morey, “Well, we’re not a church!!!” To me this seemed an ridiculous attempt to justify the current process so that things don’t have to be done like a church above-board. That's how I took what I was told.

In letter to them I said, "One might say if that is so, then why are people told that they need to be tithing to “the church,” and why are people given a “church bulletin” when they walk in the door on Sundays (with the name Faith Community Church on it)?"

Someone might say the pastor is not constrained from doing it this way (current process) since a laborer is worthy of his wages. Well, if this is a defense because it’s “not a church” with elders/deacons and a board running things, again THEN don’t tell people to “tithe to the church” and don’t give them a bulletin saying it’s a church. Is this not a DECEPTION? Isn’t it somewhat of a deception to not tell the loose cash donors how the process works before they put their hard-earned money into the offering plate?

If they knew he was taking uncounted cash home, would they still donate loose cash every week or would they demand more accountability?

3. At the 9/27/05 meeting, Dr. Morey cited Paul as having taking money for ministry purposes and this was justification of the current process or taking home uncounted loose cash from the offering. But when I studied 1 Corinthians 9:1-20, I got a different read on it.

Paul was explaining in context, “Don’t take the money if it causes someone to stumble.” I used TMSB Bible notes in studying this:

9:1, 2 In chap. 8, Paul set out the limits of Christian liberty. In this chapter he sets forth how he followed them in his own life. In vv. 1–18, he discusses his right to be financially supported by those to whom he ministers. In vv. 19–27, he explains how he would give up all rights to win people to Christ. All of these questions are rhetorical, the “yes” answer to each being assumed.
9:2 seal of my apostleship. The existence of the church in Corinth was evidence of Paul’s apostolic authenticity. 9:3 examine. Using this Gr. legal term for a preliminary investigation required before a decision was reached in a case, Paul sets out to defend his rights. 9:4 right to eat and drink. Cf. Gal. 6:6; 1 Tim. 5:17, 18. He was entitled to be married (v. 5) and to receive financial support from those to whom he ministered. 9:5 Cephas. Peter, who was married (cf. Mark 1:29–31).
9:6 working. With sarcasm, Paul, a tentmaker (Acts 18:3), let the Corinthians know that he and Barnabas had as much right as others to receive full financial support from their work. Except for help from a few churches (e.g., Phil. 4:15, 16), they paid their own expenses not because of obligation or necessity, but voluntarily.
9:7 Who plants a vineyard. Cf. 2 Tim. 2:6. 9:9 law. The Scripture, as quoted from Deut. 25:4.
9:10 for our sakes. As in agriculture, men should earn their living from their labor.
9:11 material things. Financial support. See note on 1 Tim. 5:17. Cf. 2 Cor. 8:1–5.
9:12 others are partakers. Apparently, the church had financially supported other ministers. endure. False teachers sought money. Paul wanted to be certain he was not classed with them, so he endured not accepting support, so as not to offend. Cf. Acts 20:34; 2 Thess. 3:8.
9:13 partake of the offerings. OT priests were supported by the tithes of crops and animals, as well as of financial gifts (Num. 18:8–24; cf. Gen. 14:18–21).
9:14 live from the gospel. This refers to earning a living by preaching the good news.
9:15 none of these things. The 6 reasons given in vv. 1–14 that indicate his right to financial support. nor have I written. He was not underhandedly hoping that, despite his protest, the Corinthians would feel obligated to pay him (2 Cor. 11:8, 9; cf. 1 Thess. 2:9; 2 Thess. 3:8; 1 Pet. 5:2). better … to die. He preferred death to having anyone think he ministered with a financial motive. See Acts 20:33–35; 1 Pet. 5:2. make my boasting void. The term “boast” refers to that in which one glories or to the basis of one’s glorying, and carries the idea of rejoicing. It is a statement of sincere joy, not pride (cf. 1:31; Rom 15:17). He was genuinely overjoyed for the privilege of serving the Lord and did not want material support to rob him of it in any way.
9:16 nothing to boast of. That is to say, his boast (cf. v. 15) was not personal. He was not proud as if it were his gospel; nor was he proud about the way he preached it, as if it were his ability. necessity. Paul did not preach from personal pride, but from divine compulsion. He had no other choice, because God had sovereignly set him apart for service (see Acts 9:3–6, 15; 26:13–19; Gal. 1:15; Col. 1:25; cf. Jer. 1:5; 20:9; Luke 1:13–17). woe. God’s severest chastening is reserved for unfaithful ministers (Heb. 13:17; James 3:1).
9:17 against my will. This does not indicate that Paul was unwilling to obey but that his will had no part in the call itself. Since it was God’s sovereign choice and call, he received not a “reward,” but a “stewardship” (a valuable responsibility or duty to be carefully managed).
9:18 my reward. Not money, but the privilege of preaching the gospel without support, was Paul’s reward, so that he set aside his liberty (“right”).
9:19 a servant. By choice, he set aside his right to be supported, and thus “enslaved” himself to self-support, in order to remove a potential offense and win more people to Jesus Christ (cf. Prov. 11:30).

Along these lines, impropriety, or what many likely feel is a process that has the appearance of impropriety (3 John 1:11; Rom 12:9), or one that is not beyond reproach, is not to be imitated. Also 3 John 1:11. Thus, why imitate a process that others use in classic skimming operations? Why invite people to wonder if someone is stealing money? Moreover, why cause them to stumble? Why do other pastos say they would never allow themselves to be associated with such a process?

I seemed people were given different reasons for the process out of convenience. You can now better understand Joel's shock when having seen my letter to them. Hope this helps. We should all pray as well that all the people traumatized by dr. Morey will be able to fully recover emotionally, spiritually etc. so that in future they can serve God as He would want them to. Often in situations like this people like pastor/Dr. Morey so traumatize a person that it can derail their ability to serve the Living and True God for a period of time (in the way they formerly were doing). Many will not want to go to church for a while. They may doubt the integrity of any church for a while. They may not want to get involved with ministry for a while. But by God's graces and mercies all can be overcome.

Lenny said...

was speaking to a brother last night who was listening to the Wessels evidence on http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media . The more he listened it seemed the more righteous anger he was experiencing (based on testimony that rings true) at how people have been abused the last 15 years.

These immediately come to mind as a matter of shedding light in the midst of darkness.

- This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. - 1 Timothy 3:1-7

- 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. - 1 Timothy 6:9-10

• “Wrath is cruel and anger is outrageous, but who is able to stand before envy?” – Prov. 27:4
(Envy is hatred without a cure. Envy destroys the insides of a man. Envy/jealousy can be the most uncontrollable sin.)

• “There is nothing as powerful as truth, but often nothing as strange.” - Daniel Webster

• “Because it is sometimes so unbelievable, the truth escapes becoming known.” - Heraclites

• “Tis strange but true, for truth is always stranger than fiction.” - Lord Byron

• “In the Lord’s work, you’re either truly godly or you soon become a good actor.” - unknown pastor

• “Religion is not necessarily the same as spirituality.” – unknown pastor

over and over in Wessels evidence they speak of greed, envy, desire for riches, lying, slandering... As Scripture states and as we all know too well, lust once conceived in the heart will bear it's fruit. As mosher p. said, "nothing is new under the sun." money, money, money... Be thankful if blessed greatly with it, but if the desire for it takes over one's being, it can be a snare.

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