4.23.2008

The Abuses of Dr. Robert Morey Part 4: Email Conversations I had with a Member of FCC

[NOTE: I have removed the email conversations since I have found out that Cathrine Castaldi who questioned me in Part 3 is a lawyer here in Irvine. Until I get legal council, I will keep these email conversations private. But what follows is the intro I wrote that went before the emails].

[NOTE 2: I have now put the emails back in becaues I want people to see what I wrote. I want them to read about James, Tom, and the other godly men and women. Let the chips fall where God wants them to].

[NOTE 3: I contacted the lawyer here in Irvine who is named Cathrine Castaldi and she is not the Cathrine who asked me questions here. For the record I never said any where that Morey is suing me. But the coincidence between the two names given the current situation is quite interesting! When I write or report I want to stick to the facts and we should all shy away from speculation].

[Correction: The goodbye card that Anne Morey took away from the girls was not for Linda, it was for Patty].


Well, things sure have gotten interesting! I am grateful and encouraged by the many people commenting and speaking up about this issue. After the recent exodus of people from Faith Community Church, I emailed a friend of mine who is still a member there. I was asking for his mailing information for something unrelated to all this. In passing I asked him a couple questions about how he makes sense of the fact that there is such a high fall out rate among leaders in that church. He replied back with an answer. Then I replied back to him with a very long answer. Below here you will find those three emails now published since several people have commented in the last entry that they want me to post them. There were more emails after that, but mostly they repeat the same things and are also long, so I will spare you those. I have omitted the name of my friend who I emailed to keep him anonymous. He has chosen to stay out of this.

In one of the comments from the last entry, Cathrine Castaldi quotes something I said and then she asks me four questions:

"Multitudes of witnesses have spoken out against him..."
1. Where is the record of these witnesses? If offline, please post them here
2. How many witnesses constitutes "multitudes?"
3. Which specific sins has this multitude spoken out against (Chapter & verse please)?
4. Which Bible passages justify your "Abuses" series?

She concluded by saying:

"Please answer these four questions as best as you can and with the most detail possible. Use first and last names with contact info if possible.
Let me now briefly address these questions."

1.The record of these witnesses spans over many years, and we have good reason to believe probably spans over a couple decades. I do not recognize Cahtrine’s name so maybe she is relatively new over there and is not aware of the other large exoduses that occurred in the past. I have now witnessed three, each time with 30-50 people leaving. It is not an exaggeration to say that it is probably a hundred or more people over these years that left during these three major exoduses. I do not want to at this point start listing their full names and contact info because I have not asked their permission yet. Such will come in time. However, if any of them reading this wish to make that available, I encourage them to put their name and email address in the comments section.

2.How many witnesses constitutes “multitudes”? I think 100 people is “Warrant” to apply the word.

3.Cathrine asks “which specific sins has this multitude spoken out against (Chapter & Verse please)?” But I just wonder if she has actually read anything I have posted or anything anyone has written in the comments sections. Many of these sins are clearly explained. Do we really need a chapter and verse to know that lying, slandering, manipulating, etc. are sins? If she wants me to point in the Bible where Morey is himself in there sinning, well, he’s not in the Bible. But to satisfy her itch a little more I would suggest starting with Clark Gallagher’s Open Letter to Dr. Robert Morey (http://www.cchighland.org/robertmorey-openletter/). In that 19 page letter Clark lists 10 specific sins that he calls Morey to repent of and then he goes on to lucidly define, document, and defend his charges. So if you want concrete specifics, let’s start there.

4.Cathrine asks me, “Which Bible passages justify your "Abuses" series?” I don’t think we need Bible passages to “justify” speaking out in truth, speaking out for the church, and speaking out for the poor and needy (Pr. 31:8-9). That is, those actions are not things that we have to “justify” as though doing so were questionable. When Morey speaks out against the cults or even say, Rick Warren, the same passages that he would use to “justify” doing so would equally apply here. But let me try to satisfy this question a bit more.

First, as Christians our priority is truth. Thus we are called to repent of our own sins as well as expose sin in all other areas of life—especially in the church, and double-specially in church leadership. Of course we are to follow biblical principles for confronting elders in the church (e.g. Matt. 18; 1 Tim. 5:19), and these have been followed ad nauseam with Dr. Morey by these various waves of exoduses. Truth is not to be compromised in order to keep a position, to keep a movement alive, to keep a person protected from getting his or feelings hurt, etc. We are called to rebuke false prophets and teachers as well as crooked Christian leaders. The Bible teaches the priesthood of all believers and so we all have the authority and moral obligation to do these things. The Christian church is not the Roman Catholic hierarchical system where the common person has no voice, no authority, and no right to speak up.

Second, there are specific moral character qualifications to be an elder in the church, and these men are held to a higher standard than other believers. For one thing, elders are supposed to be held accountable by other elders in that church because there is supposed to be a plurality of elders. An elder is a public position much like a congressman, and they are held to a higher standard because they have so much influence over the lives of people. Dr. Morey is not only just a local church elder, he also heralds himself as an international scholar. He is thus open to more public scrutiny because of this.

Someone might protest here and say, “Ya but you are attacking his character and not his doctrine. That’s just an ad hominem attack, which is fallacious.” It would be a fallacy if I were in a formal debate with an agreed upon topic, but this is no formal debate. The qualifications of an elder are primarily all character qualities and not how much a man knows. And Morey’s character as an elder is exactly what is in question here. I (and many others) am not challenging or questioning his doctrine, but his character in relation to these qualifications. If he had a problem, say, lying to his wife in his marriage and was in counseling for it, I would remain silent and have respect for him. That would be his personal life and that’s one thing. But he is a public leader influencing God’s people how to think and live both inside his own church and also outside it to the larger body of Christ. Those individuals that act in such a way that brings shame, disgrace, and reasons to further unbelief should be rebuked and admonished to change.

Third, Matthew 18:15-17 gives guidelines for confronting a brother who has sinned against you. This process was followed (or at least they tried) by many people including Javier Villigran, Clark Gallagher, and others. Thus Clark’s open letter is “justified” as well as these current ones, given that he has failed to follow Matthew 18 several times, he has misused this text against these people, he has failed to meet the qualifications of an elder (if what we are saying is correct—heck, even half correct), and he has shown zero remorse over his attitudes, words, and actions. The Bible says, “tell it to the church” when he refuses to listen to these warnings. The context of the passage would assume that the other elders would be the one’s telling it to the church, but since there have never been any there and still are none over there (to my knowledge), the people of God are speaking out. At this point, we are at the public stage, though many will say we are at the tax collector stage.

Fourth, Ezekiel 33 gives us the “watchman on the wall” principle, namely, that we should be on the watch out for error, abuse, and heresy and speak up when we see it. We are called to warn God’s people of these things, and elsewhere in Ezekiel, false and bad shepherds of Israel are rebuked.

Fifth, the apostle Paul calls erring people out by name at places in the Bible. He lists their sins. Also, and maybe most relevant in this current discussion, the apostle John calls out Diotrephes by name for his sins in the church. Diotrephes was most likely an elder or leader in that local church. John says:

I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but[d] he who does evil has not seen God. Demetrius has a good testimony from all, and from the truth itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true (3 John 9-12).

Diotrephes was an abusive leader in the church. John says that when he got there he would “call to mind his deeds which he does” but then he goes on to list some of those things. Interestingly, Diotrephes love “to have the preeminence among them”. He was a power hungry leader in the church who put people out of the church who questioned or did not go along with his program.

Finally, when Dr. Morey accuses good people of all manner of evil sins, few if any people question him, few if any demand chapter & verse from him, and few if any ask to see what evidence he basis his accusations on. When he does it, it is the work of the Lord; when other’s do it to him, it is the work of the devil trying to destroy his “front-line” ministry. On biblicalthought.com Darrin at Faith Defenders made a public offer for anyone to come to the church and see “all the evidence” against Tom and another brother. I have only chimed in once over there and all I said was, “I will come to your church and see your evidence. And if you have nothing to hide then you will not mind if I bring a tape recorder and two pastors with me.” They did not let that comment onto their blog (though I have it saved). The only reason I wanted to bring two pastors with me was not to moderate or have them debate anything, but just to serve as silent witnesses to all that was said and seen. Stephen emailed me the next day and denied me to see this “evidence.” Among other things he said the only condition I can come there is if I completely repent from all my sin. He said I am not allowed on their blog because I was publicly delivered over to Satan. Or was it that, like in all the other past scandals, they would be exposed for having no evidence and that it is all made up, all a smoke screen? I will base my reputation on the characters and reputations of Tom Maxham and another church leader. If there is damning evidence to show that they were “plotting to take over the ministry” and that “Tom had his hands in the [financial] cookie jar,” well then I will be shown to be a fool for defending them and I will repent for calling Dr. Morey a liar on this issue. But I have seen them use this “we have secrete evidence tactic” all too many times while I was there. They dupe the people and then they sweep the whole scandal under the rug, ignore it ever happened, try to move on and hope to God that no one ever raises any more questions about it. Then in time people do forget about it and it is history. Dustin Hoffman also saw this public offer to see the evidence and has called the ministry several times in order to make an appointment to see it. They have not returned his calls. For the record, I have not talked with Dustin one time since all this has gone down. They will keep us at bay to protect themselves from being exposed by saying we are now delivered over to Satan. I didn’t know that they could deliver over members of other churches to Satan posthumously. When I read that I immediately emailed the elders at my church to tell them to watch out and be on guard, for there is an apostate heretic in their fold who is delivered over to de devil. These accusations against Tom were made in a public members meeting. Where’s the evidence to prove it Dr. Morey? Let me examine it with two or three witnesses and let me tape record our meeting for all to see. I will transcribe it and post it.

If all these men (Javier, Clark, Tom, Mike, myself and others) are so unstable, untrustworthy, and corrupt, why did Dr. Morey put them all in leadership positions over the church? Why did he publicly ordain them (not as elders in his church) but as ministers of the gospel? If they are really all the things he is calling them, what does that say about his abilities as a shepherd to put godly men into leadership over the people? You see, if these men are all corrupt and unregenerate as he is now claiming, then what kind of leader would put them in leadership positions over his church? On the other hand, if Dr. Morey was correct in spotting these godly men who stood out and were effective leaders, then are we really to believe the evil things he is speaking about them now? How could he let them help lead his church for years but then so quickly and so coldly to turn on them and accuse them of heinous sins? Which is it Dr. Morey?

In later email conversations I had with this anonymous member at FCC, I said to him that you can ignore all else I have said and chose not to respond, but please answer me one question: do you really think Tom (and another leader who wishes to be unnamed now) are guilty of those awful charges? To this day he still has not answered me, probably because Morey instructed the congregation on a Sunday morning to not read any blogs or emails, not take any phone calls, and not associate with anyone who speaks out against his ministry. They censored my request to see the evidence on their blog and they censored this post by Mike Robirds yesterday:

Mario,
I have been silent on this blog up until now. As I read your writing today, I wholeheartedly agree with scripture that we need to test ourselves continually to see if we are in the Faith. As a result, one assurance we can have to see if we are in the Faith is our Love for the brethren. 1 John 3:23-24, 4:7. In the last few weeks, I have watched as certain men on this blog, have maliciously, and cruelly attacked a certain group of people, because they left a “local” church body. They have been called: False brothers, apostates, rebellious, wolves, etc…all because they deemed that it was time to move on from a local congregation. I ask you, where is the love for the brethren Mario? Eph 4:1-2 Paul exhorts us to walk with all Humility, gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another etc… Col 3:12- Put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness etc. I have not seen this from this blog site. There have been a lot of people to leave your local body, I ask you why? Are we all Apostates? Where have been the calls for reconciliation, repentance? If we are in sin, Galatians 6: 2 - tells us that those of you who are spiritual restore those who are caught in sin with a spirit of GENTLENESS. Regardless of what you say Mario, I do not consider you a false brethren, or apostate. I served in your present church for 9 years faithfully. I gave of my time, my energy, and my resources. I even shared some great fellowship time with you in prayer, and talking about life’s issues and the struggle of being a man of God in a fallen world. I ask, did you consider me a brother then? While I agree with your blog, I think you better look at 1 Cor 13. For you guys can have all knowledge, and win every argument, you can have a prophetic word, and even believe that you are Martyrs, because your the last ones left. But if you have not love for the brethren, and yes, those that left your “local” church body are regenerate believers, then you have nothing. I call on you and the rest to stop these attacks, against Godly people, and just get on about the business of serving the Lord in whatever capacity he has called you. Thanks for listening, and I welcome your comments.

This comment, like mine, was censored and not allowed on their blog. Why do you think that is? Was Mike’s post malicious and unbiblical? Or could it be that it would have exposed what he said? How could they respond to this? They could not and so they blocked it.

You know, I guess it's possible that all these people over all these years are just all liars and are just making this stuff up. It is possible that they are all, as Morey claims, being used by Satan to work against him. But is it really believable? Is it more believable that all these good and godly people are all consorting together and creating lies, or that this one man who no one ever questions is the one spinning stories? Friends, if you are honest with yourself before God, I hope you can see all this. What follows next are the initial email conversations I had with a good friend who still is a member at Faith Community Church. If you choose to comment, please do not nit pick little things and side track the real issue.

The Emails:
Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:23:21 -0700 (PDT)
Sent to: Friend at Faith Community Church


Thanks little brother. I am curious though what you think about so many key leaders leaving the church. Do you think they are all wrong and mistaken? Why do you think leadership seems to leave in series and waves there? What say you?

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:52:40 -0700
Sent to: Joel Hughes


[Note as of 04-25-08: my friend at FCC who wrote this initial email to me has asked me to remove his email. Thus it is gone. However, the reason he gave as to why he thought that so many people were leaving is because they are all prideful.]

Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:40:59 -0700 (PDT)
Sent to: friend at Faith Community Church


Alright young Jedi, I have thought for a while about how to respond to this. My goal is not to try to pry you out of there. But I would like to give you some things to think about.

I will be a bit blunt in some of this but do not take it personally. I have great respect for you and your abilities. I have plans for a future apologetics/education ministry to take over the world and you are one of the few I entertain in mind to have as a partner—that is, if you will have me. But from what I remember, you were never very tied into the ministry, never really knew too many people or leadership. That might have changed by now. But I must say that you are very naïve, not in your outlook on life, but as to what you know about Dr. Bob and the ministry. When I was there (for almost 5 years) I got really involved and I got to know most of the leadership very well. I saw many things that I thought were bad or even sinful. These things I wrote in detail to Dr. Bob in my 10 page letter to him, of which I heard from several people, that he never read. But instead of reading it and taking it seriously, he has since accused me of gossip, slander, and pride to several people, including my current pastor. When my pastor asked him about what I did and what slander and gossip I did, Dr. Morey back tracked and changed the subject. He is master of doing that. But he warned my pastor about me and told him that I was dangerous and unstable. Thankfully, my pastor saw through it. I have only showed my letter to Dr. Bob, Tom M, and my pastor. I have not gossiped or slandered in any way, but all I wanted to do was get out silently and move on. But he follows those who try to do that and calls their pastors and poisons the well. Here is another case in point.

As you remember, Javier and Lisa Villigran were “ex-communicated” from the church several years ago. I was on the inside when all that was going down. I talked with both sides and the leadership as well. That family was virtually ruined for a couple years. Javier wept on the phone to me and could not believe what Dr. Bob was doing to them, the tactics he was using. Javier and Lisa were with Dr. Bob for many years, before I got there. We were good friends with them outside the church. They are a godly family and got along well with everyone in the church. That family served him so faithfully and Javier helped me lead the kid’s ministry. He was in charge of half of it. Javier had the audacity to question some of the things he saw going on in the ministry with the finances. He got the run around and Dr. Bob evaded him and his questions. He was then formally delivered over to Satan for gossip. When this was happening I was in one of the morning staff “prayer” meetings and I was just listening to Cindy spew vitriolic poison about Javier and Lisa. It made me sick. I got a little angry and asked her some point blank questions; I essentially challenged the “evidence” she had. She had no answer, but more of a blind devotion to Dr. Bob and the ministry. Dorothy Kusch was so sickened by Cindy’s answers and bitterness that she just got up and left. I am getting to my other “case in point” soon. Last week I had lunch with the Villigrans and we reconciled. I learned many other interesting and scary things about Dr. Bob. But my case in point is that when they left the church, they started going to a reformed Baptist church. I visited that church last week and the pastor, Pastor Elliot, gave an amazing sermon on the resurrection. The Villigrans started going to this church. Pastor Elliot tried to contact Dr. Bob to talk to him about them. Dr. Bob would not take his calls. He tried to set up an appointment at the ministry but they would not let him. But interestingly there was a pastor’s conference in some other state and pastor Elliot was there. Someone pointed out to him that that’s Dr. Morey over there. So pastor Elliot went over and introduced himself and asked about the Villigrans. Dr. Bob said he had never heard of them. He said this several times until finally Elliot asked enough questions that Dr. Bob flipped again and said, “Oh yes, now I remember them.” He lied my friend. He outright lied. There is no way he could have forgotten who they were. Javier tried many times to meet with Dr. Bob and reconcile, but Dr. Bob would not have it unless Javier submitted to his ridiculous rules. Javier and his new pastor tried to reach Dr. Bob to again seek reconciliation, but he would not do so. I guess my case in point is not exactly the same, but oh well.

May I also remind you that Clark was publicly open in his letters and in his private emails that I have seen that he wanted and was willing to reconcile with Dr. Bob. Dr. Bob would not do it. He closed the books and said in his email (which I have) that he no longer ever wanted to talk to Clark. Is that biblical? Is that godly? Is that practicing what he teaches? If you don’t believe me you can read the long letter I wrote him where I document it from the emails with time and dates. Again, Clark was one who was so devoted to Dr. Bob it almost at times made me sick. Clark got axed from Dr. Bob blindly and in public. It is all documented. Dr. Bob was sinfully unbiblical. Clark has documented all this also in his open letter to Dr. Morey which you can read online.

My friend, do you realize how many people have left that church and how many families and people have been hurt and broken by that man? All of these people served him and the ministry so faithfully for years (of course they were serving God in doing so or at least should have been). We did so much for that man from teaching Sunday mornings, Mondays, Sunday Seminary, ran the church to helping him clean his garage or taking him to dinner. And that’s just the start. All these people who were leaders in the church who have left are mostly all still in contact and we are working on putting together some sort of FCC reunion, and the number of these people would outnumber the current population of the church right now.

May I also reiterate that the whole Clark thing was ridiculous? Again, I was listening carefully to both sides when that went down. Dr. Bob straight out lied to me about Clark and things that Clark allegedly said to me. He said that Clark told TJ some outlandish things, but when we asked TJ he said (and I have it on email) that Clark never said any such thing to him. I didn’t believe it when Dr. Bob told me these things there sitting in his minivan; I didn’t believe it because they were so outlandish and unbelievable. He did not do what Dr. Bob said he did or said. Again, there were slanderous lies.

I ask you, does any church you know of have such a high fall out rate among its leadership? I want you to think of a few people in particular. Aside from the Villigrans, I want you to think about Tom and Patty Maxham. If there was ever a couple more dedicated to the cause and the ministry it was them. Tom read over 100 books recommended to him by Dr. Bob and read dozens of books on counseling and went to many seminars. He and Dorothy Kusch counseled dozens and dozens of people and families at the church. Tom put in countless hours late into the night counseling people at the church, all for free. He was still working full time at the fire station. Dr. Bob completely trusted both his ability and his doctrine. He spoke highly of Tom many times about his gifts in this way. On top of all that, Tom took an early retirement from his job as chief of the fire station so he could devote himself full time to the ministry—again without any pay. In taking this early retirement he took a large hit financially on what he could get in his retirement, but he did this for Christ and the church. Is it really “pride” that caused Tom the counselor to leave in disgust? He said on the phone that leaving there was the healthiest thing he could do for his family. What do you think he meant by that? He was on the inside, he saw and he knew too much. One more thing, he has meet with the Villigrans to reconcile and apologize for how things went down with them. He knew that it was done all wrong and that lies were told about them to demonize them. I think if Tom had any fault it was that he just needed to stand up earlier to the abuses and lies and schemes. When I left the church, Tom pleaded several times with me to stay. He said he would talk to Dr. Bob and they would work on many of the problems I had brought up and confronted in my letter. Even then he was staunchly devoted to Dr. Bob and the church. No longer. They have now stood up. The only people I ever gave my Dr. Bob letter to were Dr. Bob, Tom, and my pastor. Tom read it then and re-read it recently and he said that I was right on in everything and that I saw many of the problems early or sooner than many others. But what I mention in it is all for the most part public knowledge and public things.

I would have you consider Mike Robirds who was with Dr. Bob from the very beginning when he arrived in California. Mike served Dr. Bob and his family for so long and in so many ways. Remember also that Dr. Bob put Mike in charge over the men’s discipleship. When I left the church, Mike also tried hard to keep me to stay. I remember the last time we talked (other than just recently) was at my job at Calvary Chapel. He came by to pick something up. When I brought up all the problems of Dr. Bob he said that we just need to put our heads down and keep moving forward. I immediately thought of an ostrich who buries his head in the sand. Mike was mad at me and so blindly devoted to Dr. Bob, he completely trivialized all the problems. I did recently get a chance to meet and speak with Mike and we have reconciled. He is so amazed that he could be deceived for so long. He could tell you much more. When the ladies in the women’s discipleship class passed a card around to say goodbye to Patty (Tom's wife), Annie Morey came over and ripped it out of a ladies hand and said in complete anger and said that they are not allowed to talk to her. You see friend, they have a cultish mentality in controlling who you can associate with. They black list people and then instruct them that they are not allowed to talk with them. Nicki and I were blacklisted. We heard from a girl in the women’s discipleship that in one of their meetings Cindy instructed (commanded) them that they were not to talk to Nicki and Joel Hughes because Nicki’s husband is deceived by Satan right now and that they need to pray for Nicki. OK. But not only were we blacklisted Dr. Bob slandered me later on to several people for no reason.

I would have you consider [name omitted until I have permission to use it] who also helped run the church and worked there for either no pay or for the most meager pay. But she also served the church in so many ways for no pay like helping run the kids ministry, doing secretarial work...omitted for now...She is one of the old saints that every church needs. She finally could stand it no longer either. She got too close and learned too much. During her last time there she was in a member’s meeting and she dared to ask or challenge with some questions in public about some things. She said that Cindy got angry and pointed her finger at her and said something to the effect that we will discuss that in private, not here. She has left and since reconciled with us and many others who were ejected or blacklisted.

Oh and there are so many others. I could mention Jim the financial guy the ministry had who taught the Crown Financial seminars and courses to the church. Jim worked for the church for a while doing all the financial stuff. When he finally found out how they deal with finances and all the schemes for money, he left. Dr. Bob slandered him and hounded him afterward. When he found out how insanely high the interest rate on the building loan was, he was horrified that Dr. Bob would be so biblically irresponsible and place such a burden on the people.

[I have omitted several names at this place from the original email since I need their permission]

I could go on and mention so many more people just like these who served for years and formed and lead the church.

Think about how much money Dr. Bob raises and gets. Do you know how many fund raising tactics he has done and how many hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions of dollars he has raised? Think of one example, the Crusader’s Club. That is purely a money making scheme. People from the inside have said this. It is such a joke and one reason I never got involved in it because I saw right through it from the start. Pay hundreds of dollars and you get a coffee mug, a sticker, and access to Dr. Bob’s email address to ask him questions. Please. But the men in the men’s discipleship group were forced to pay into it each month. You can bet I fought that one and almost dropped out of the group over that.

The whole initial deacon process was also a fraud and unbiblical. It didn’t even make sense. Read my letter for details on that one. The leadership of the church is really just Dr. Bob and some odd “Board” of yes men and yes women. Things are really just run by Dr. Bob and his vice president, Cindy. She controlled the selection of deacons more than Dr. Bob did. Please do not mistake all this as me being bitter. I am absolutely not. I am long over it. I am concerned about you though. When Dr. Bob wanted to go on the radio the whole staff and whole board was against it. They were already overworked and the church could not afford it since they were in the red every month with bills. Did he listen? No he forced it through and plunged the church into huge financial debt (ca. $40,000). Read my letter for more on that. His priorities are not the church and the people, but his projects and visions (CBUS and Radio and his (n)ever coming book).

And may I say that after 6 or so years there still are no elders in the church! What does that tell you? Do you know how many good and qualified men have come through there who wanted to be elders? One by one, they all get ejected or leave in disgust. Clark, Tom, Mike, and myself were all in Dr. Bob’s eldership discussion group. We read books together on eldership and meet once a month to discuss the book. Dr. Bob came in the beginning but eventually just stopped showing up and gave it over to Tom to run. The unspoken goal was that some of us there would eventually become elders. Nothing ever came of it because Dr. Bob did nothing with it and just forgot about it (and us). He runs the whole show on his own and it will NEVER be any different. There is always talk of elders, but it never happens and years go by. My friend, if you have hopes of becoming an elder there some day, I can assure you, you never will. He will never do it. He will give you all sorts of hopes and promises, he will give you assignments and books to read, but he will never do anything else. If you ever do become an elder there please print this email (just one page) and I will literally eat it and stand on my head. He will not tolerate sharing the power with anyone. It is Bob Morey Live and Solo, or it is nothing at all.

The man made so many promises to me. Countless times he would tell me that he wanted to bring me on staff full time but they just didn’t have the money to do so. I waited patiently and honestly expected nothing. I had hopes, but I expected nothing. My wife will attest to that. But then when they had no money to bring me on staff, guess what? But I didn’t think much of it and waited patiently. I watched the staff grow and grow. Hmmmm. Then I get promises again that he wants to bring me on staff or even eldership. But again, there was no money. But then he launches the radio show. Ok. It was one thing after another, like there was no money to pay the good intelligent men who could lead, but there was money to pay his daughter a salary and his son also for being the on staff “proof reader”? If there were ever a conjured job, it was that one. And there were still tons of errors in the proof read works!

Those who get too close to him or get too much power or question his ways, they get cut. He will make up stories and accusations and lies. This is well documented with all the cases mentioned above. This is why people leave (or one big reason), the man is a continual liar. He slanders like crazy.

Have you ever heard a pastor or Christian leader boast about himself and his abilities any where as close as you have him? Could you imagine some of your other heroes talking about themselves as he does? He creates and promotes a culture that praises him to high heaven as the smartest and greatest scholar since Jonathan Edwards or Calvin. This is part of the deception that keeps people there. And let’s be honest friend, his scholarship is not even all that—at least compared to so many others out there right now. His “doxological” apologetics is for the most part a joke. I have also heard of plagiarism in his work. His 40 plus books consist of at least half little pamphlets, and the bound books he has are small and basic little intros to stuff. He does have a few impressive works. But also, do you really believe he reads every work in the library of congress when doing a research project? Please, no one could do that. There is just no way you could read thousands of volumes in a weekend trip. It would take a day just to read through all the titles. This is another lie to magnify himself and create that kind of culture. You get used to and inoculated to it over time. But most who first show up are shocked at his self-promotion and either never come back or get inoculated also.

But all this aside even, there are real and serious other problems going on. These are serious enough to leave. But I would rather have you hear it from others who recently left. If this response has stirred any concern in you, I would encourage you to contact some of those men and talk to them. They will tell you. What I have said here is just the tip of the ice berg, of what is out in public view.

I do trust that you will come to see the truth that I speak of eventually. Either you will see it and say “enough is enough” or you will get screwed by Dr. Bob somehow. I warn you, he fights very dirty. He did so with the Villigrans, he did so with Clark, he did so with me, and he is now doing so with many who have left and many others in the past. He does stuff that you would simply not believe. I would also challenge you to let your girlfriend read this (if you guys are still together) because often the women are more sensitive to these things than we are and they see them earlier. If you choose to keep this response from her and keep your head in the sand like an ostrich that will tell a lot. Let her read this and see what she says.

Why did I leave the church? I left the church because I lost all respect for Dr. Bob as a man and to a large part as a scholar.

Peace
Joel

149 comments:

Anonymous said...

It is too funny that the man who was kicked out of Bible college for asking too many questions (as anyone who has attended the church or ministry functions has heard the story numerous times) is now kicking people out/forcing people out for asking too many questions. It is my prayer that God will show people the truth in this situation.

Joel Hughes said...

Cathrine - are you the person named below?

Cathrine M. Castaldi, Rus, Miliband & Smith, A Professional Corporation
2600 Michelson Drive Seventh Floor, Irvine, California 92612 U.S.A.
Attorney at Law

Joel Hughes said...

I have taken this latest post down because I believe that Morey has a lawyer as my previous comment shows. After I receive legal council that will determine if it goes back up. But I will fight and not be intimidated.

Joshua said...

Though I attended FCC for a couple of years and witnessed all manner of wickedness come out of that man, I am quite shocked at the most recent development. This is low even for Morey.

He has now taken his crusade against truth even further in order to preserve his empire - to the point of actually threatening you. I want you to know that I support you *fully* because I believe that you are doing what is moral, just, and simply biblical. This is counter-cult apologetics in the truest sense. It shows how much your letters are having an effect, the fact that you've driven this cult-leader to shut his mouth and attempt to threaten to sue you. I want you to know that I am ready and willing to help you in *any* way I possibly can. You just give me the word.

I am so relieved that you are refusing to back down to this tyrant - he is used to people caving into his pressure. You are probably the first, aside from the ministry out in Texas, who hasn't. It is particularly interesting to witness the sort of dishonest tactics he is using to build a false case. That sort of questioning that the lawyer gave was a dishonest trap - anything but a way a true Christian should deal with this matter (she did not identify herself as a lawyer investigating the matter and using your words as evidence - which is sneaky and dishonest). After not identifying herself, SHE asks for you to put these emails online. If this ever escalated (though she seems to be just a threat especially since she knowingly coerced you to put that online) it could be the avenue God uses to fully expose Bob for the liar that he is. Especially because he has no case at all. This is just a mafia tactic being used to scare you into silence. He is freaking out because his evil is being exposed. Keep up this fight and remember: If there is *anything* I can do just let me know.

But all in all I think this is simply an empty threat to get you to stop because you are hitting so many nerves. The most recent email conversation was the best weapon against his lies so far. I really hope that all who haven’t spoken up about their experience with Morey will now do so - especially those who witnessed his sins first hand. I hope that you will all join in support of Joel and ultimately truth. Speaking out will only compound the evidence mounting against Morey and prevent more from being so badly abused.

For the cause of God and truth,

Josh

Mosher Periodical said...

Joel,
Don't let empty threats bring fear, we know that's one of Satan's Devices.

For those who are online reading this who just left FCC and in grief, I encourage you brothers and sisters in Christ to be continually growing in the Lord and not be embittered!

Remember Ephesians 5:11 Joel...

Anonymous said...

Seeing as all you people have so much time on your hands to complain, moan, and groan, I think you should read a book called "Shut Up, Stop Whining, and Get a Life: A Kick-Butt Approach to a Better Life" by Larry Winget. It might help you guys become more productive with your time. You can get it on Amazon.com here is the link!

http://www.amazon.com/Shut-Stop-Whining-Get-Life/dp/0471654655

MOSHER PERIODICAL said...

Dear ANONYMOUSE,
I can't find that book, link don't work.
But I think you should read the Bible about Eph. 5:11, eh?

dave said...

Joel’s and Josh’s reply (part 3) to danny’s (April 21, 2008 12:02 PM ) response to Joey (April 21, 2008 2:38 AM ) was excellent and this post is not meant to usurp what they wrote. This post written before their posts but had to run before putting on. Although it is similar in message to Josh’s/Joel’s, the purpose is simply to reinforce what they wrote and to build on what Mosher wrote April 23, 2008 10:40 PM (part 4): "Remember Ephesians 5:11 Joel...", and what Mosher wrote (part 3 April 22, 2008 2:44 PM): "Danny, if you want Dr. Bob's name sake not to be slighted, you should encourage him to finally have Elders in his church whom he is accountable to and can guard him."

i.e., the FCCers are complaining that some ex-FCCers are bringing to light some of morey's abuses, but THIS IS WHAT MR. MOREY HAS CHOSEN. when you don't have elders "by design" so that you can be a lone ranger "doing what thou wilt," the documented abuses by mr. morey are exactly the kind of thing that can occur-abuse on a grand scale taking place within the church walls. it is felt by some that mr. morey was playing the classic con of using the shell game tactic. every 6 months or so you devise an excuse to move the shell out, to move out the promised date of what people are expecting you to deliver. But the hidden agenda is never to deliver on your promise. so although mr. morey kept promising to have elders appointed to oversee the church, somehow it just never happened. gee, maybe it was the classic shell con game.

Danny: If it’s true as you say, you don’t attend fcc, haven't you exposed yourself? This make no sense, this is not something you want to do is it or are you playing games with the saints? You don’t know the actual events of what these people went through yet you dismiss what they say and defend mr. morey? Wouldn’t that be like when an Arminian thinker/debater who never read the works of Calvin and other reform writers, yet debates heatedly against a Calvinist that Arminian theology is correct and that Calvinist thinking (that God elects who He desires for salvation) is blasphemy? He don’t even know their points and reasoning yet he enters in debate with them, calling them evil doers? Why would anyone listen to him?

Ephes. 5:11 says to expose the works of darkness. Why not consider this danny? The leader of fcc has by the testimony of numerous people over the years, done awful things to people going back 15 or more years. And the things they report of what he does fits a pattern, providing consistency over time. When we have a consistent pattern, it lends truth to their testimony—SO YOU DIDN’T HAVE TO BE THERE danny to know this is a major red flag, and that you ought be darn careful about the fruit you might bear someday as a result of being under robert morey’s influence, for after all, he is a persuasive communicator.

Is this the logic you wish people to entertain? i.e., What if someone is going around literally knifing women in the back with a hunting knife? People ought not do anything about it, even when numerous people have warned us this is happening and told us who they know is doing it? Why, because according to you it’s just gossip. Is that loving your neighbor danny? So the police should always dismiss leads because it’s gossip?

Is that the justice required of Micah 6:8? People have shown mr. morey incredible mercy over the years when they possibly could have publicly exposed him for various things he has done. Many accounts exist for which he could have been taken down long ago. But people showed him mercy. And what did he do? According to many accounts he went on to hurt more people viciously and it is on record, and more people are bringing some of it to light. But it seems you don’t want to know. That’s your business. You’ll find out the hard way. Many people tried matt. 18 with him. But they found it to be a mockery. The accounts indicate he rigs it that way. So they feel they that in addition to praying for mr. morey to repent (psalm 51), they are forced to expose the works of darkness since that is of HIS CHOOSING. HE CHOSE THIS WAY. They did not choose this way. Subsequently they apparenly felt God has burdened their heart to try and protect just a few people from mr. morey’s consistent schemes, exposing the ‘sin in the camp’ if you will. It appears that these people only shared their accounts with others when they were asked (sometimes begged) to by friends wanting to know the truth, warning if they might be in DANGER by being around mr. morey.***

And what do you do danny? You rebuke them for trying to love their neighbor and attempting to see that some kind of justice is done.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. – Ephesians 5:11

one interpretation of 5:11:
5:11 no fellowship with … darkness. Paul’s instruction is plain and direct: Christians are to faithfully live in righteousness and purity and have nothing at all to do with the evil ways and works of Satan and the world. The two ways of living are unalterably opposed to each other and mutually exclusive. Cf. 1 Cor. 5:9–11; 2 Cor. 6:14–18; 2 Thess. 3:6, 14. but rather expose them. The Christian’s responsibility does not stop with his own rejection of evil. He is also responsible for exposing and opposing darkness wherever it is found, especially when it is found in the church. See Matt. 18:15–17; Gal. 6:1–3.

***Some people recently are trying to let interested parties know the truth and they are not making it up. Consider loving your neighbor:

A friend tells the truth. But an enemy lies to you. Some FCCers might want to know the truth but the crew under morey doesn't want them to find out.

- Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. – Proverbs 27:6

- Wounds from a friend are better than many kisses from an enemy. – Proverbs 27:6 (NLT version)

- A friend is someone you can trust. They care about your interests, that they are not harmed.

- A friend is not afraid to tell you the truth about certain things, but an enemy deceives you. Truth is telling it like it is.

- To love someone is to tell them the truth. DISHONESTY is not telling it like it is.

- A friend may give faithful wounds. They sometimes hurts your feelings at the risk of the relationship. A friend shows true love (caring for the needs of others; caring about eternal life. Love is not a feeling. Feelings change. Love is about doing what’s in person’s best interest- their needs and welfare).

- Most people will not tell you the truth in order to maintain the relationship. They’re interested in their own self-interests. Evil people deceive others for their purposes, sometimes with kisses.

- He who hates, disguises it with his lips, And lays up deceit within himself; When he speaks kindly, do not believe him, For there are seven abominations in his heart;…A lying tongue hates those who are crushed by it, And a flattering mouth works ruin. - Proverbs 26:24-28

In this matter we should pray mercy and grace for people on both sides of the matter.

Sam said...

Yup, sad stuff. I agree with almost everything you said to the point that I can confirm them for myself, but I would encourage you Joel to restrain yourself a little on what you hear from others, if only to protect your own reputation and preserve what's left of Dr. Bob's

For example, people are disputing whether or not he actually read your letter and your email says "some people" told you he didn't. That's all well and good but it doesn't seem to me to be enough evidence to actually accuse him of not reading it. I don't want to be too harsh (you know that I agree with you) but if you accuse him of things like that that you're not entirely sure about, you are stooping down to his level. He accuses you of so many things, but how many of those things has he actually talked to you personally about? Don't return it.

I hope you are doing well and that the passion that consumes you is not the desire to speak about what Dr. Morey did to you but what Christ has done for you and will do through you. You most likely already have internalized this, but I know that sometimes we need things to be told to us straight up. Thank you for the info and I will continue to pray for you.

Joel Hughes said...

I plan on a longer reply to some things later after work, but Sam, you are right. I receive your words. I definately do not want to get into speculation and all. What I did not put in the last blog was another later email I had with my friend. He argued vigorously with me that Morey did read my letter. I replied with five reasons I had to believe he did not. But at any rate, I have no problem retracting my statement and apologizing to all if he actually did read it. I guess it makes it all the more curiuos that if he did read it and knew that I said I would make it public if he later slandered me, why did he then go on to slander me to others? But anyway, I hear you Sam. For the record, I am not bitter or angry or consumed by this. I'm pretty calm and cool and try to be objective. I'm just tired of this because he has done so many deceitful things to so many people over so many years. Enough is enough.

Peace
Joel

Joshua said...
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Joshua said...

Some interesting links:

http://www.ocweekly.com/news/news/dr-jihad/24608/?page=1

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-that-oc-religion/schism-occurring-at-faith-comm/

Joshua said...
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Joshua said...
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Joshua said...

I've had some trouble getting the link below to work, hopefully it does now:

All of you who doubted Joel about there being a 6 hour documentary detailing the evidence of Morey stealing around $30,000 from an apologetics ministry out in Texas now have the audio version of the film:

http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media

The video version will soon be put online but until then, this should do.

Joshua said...
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Joshua said...
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Joshua said...
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Joshua said...

Sorry about all the deleted posts. I was having trouble getting that website to post in full - it should work now.

Anonymous said...

Pretty amazing stuff.I could not see any sane attorney willing to represent Morey after all the Wessel evidence.May God grant Dr.Bob repentance and those he has hurt forgiveness.

Jim said...

I too attended FCC and departed on my own in 2006. I purposely kept distance between Morey and senior leadership. I had previously experienced destructive church leadership and had no desire to relive this experience. Maintaining my distance was difficult, but possible even though I taught classes at FCC. I can remember once in one of my classes I actually expressed disagreement with Morey and his recommendations for witnessing to JW’s; there were a number who gasped out loud in shock that I would disagree with their all wise leader. Morey needs to be challenged for his positions and this message board is a great beginning. Thanks Joel! BTW, I don’t think we formally met, but you would recognize me as I would you :)

Gustavo Arellano said...

Apparently, you're a terrorist:

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/gimme-that-oc-religion/arrogance-thy-name-is-robert-m/

Clark said...

Morey writes in a comment to the OC Weekly staff blog,

"The above authors counsel churches under attack by such terrorists not to react to these childish tirades and temper tantrums. Instead, we should remain positive and go on doing works of charity -while ignoring the terrorists."

Apparently, posting public blog comments and articles, naming names, and inventing an imaginary "Legion of Doom" counts as "ignoring the terrorsits."

Here is yet another example of inconsistency from the old doctor. Advocating ignoring the "terrorists" while in the act of doing anything but ignoring them would be funny if it were not so sad. What is worse is that now Morey thinks it is necessary to defend himself to unbelivers.

Much grace and mercy is needed for this pathetic situation.

Joel Hughes said...

I tried all day to post this on the OC Weekly sight in reply to Dr. Morey's comments, but thus far my comments have not gone up. Here they are.

For the Record:

Let me attempt to clarify the situation with a dose of truth.
I attended Dr. Morey's church, Faith Community Church, in Irvine, for about 5 years. I was also involved and helped his ministry Faith Defenders as well as worked for a short time at his California Biblical University and Seminary where I helped create syllabi for undergraduate courses. My wife and I served faithfully and tithed faithfully to the church and ministry. We were in charge of running the kids ministry. I was a deacon and also publicly ordained by Dr. Morey as a minister of the gospel. I preached numerous times for him on Sunday mornings when he was gone; I also taught his Monday night apologetics course at times. I was a regular teacher for the Sunday Seminary classes that took place before the main service. I taught courses in Evangelism, Hermeneutics, and Greek. I was also involved with four other men in an eldership program/think tank there. I oversaw a men's discipleship cell in the South County and I preached to all the men on the importance of discipleship at the men's retreat. I only say all this to help what I am saying have some inside knowledge and credibility. I learned a lot of good stuff while I was there under his teaching. I wish that were the whole story. I eventually left the church with my family because I lost all respect for Dr. Morey as a man and even to a large degree, as a scholar.
Let me now address some of the comments that Dr. Morey posted here.

Morey said:
We who actually attend Faith Community Church don’t see any schism or confusion in the church. We are happy and joyful serving the Lord. Our attendance is great and things are moving forward with great joy. To see this is true, just visit some Sunday service (10:30AM at 17601 Fitch, Irvine).

Joel says:
Is this really so? The church goes through periodic waves of mass exoduses, each time 30-50 people leave at once. I have witnessed three of these mass exoduses thus far. During the first one, Dr. Morey preached a sermon titled “The Sin of Schism” which I have sitting here in front of me at my desk. His current blogs are all about schism and the fear of evil people trying to destroy his church. In this most recent exodus, approximately 50 people left. How can you say that there is no schism or confusion in your church when so many people have left all at once and most of these people were your key leaders? How can you say that there is no confusion or problems when the man who built and ran your “university” is now gone? How can you say that there is no confusion or problems when the man who oversaw your men’s discipleship program is now gone? How can you say that there is no confusion or problems when the man who ran the counseling program and who was administrator over the ministry is now gone? How can you say that your “attendance is great” when you have lost so many? From what I hear your attendance has dwindled significantly to an all time low. As to you being “happy and joyful serving the Lord,” well, I cannot know the true state of your heart, but the Bible says that out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. So what are some of the things that Dr. Morey has recently said? This is what he says about many of the people who chose to leave his church.

Dr. Morey (said):

Dear Fellow Joy-filled Brothers,
I offer the following insight as to why some of those who leave FCC experience nothing but bitterness, rage, and hatred in their life.
“To whom much is given, much is required.”
These people grew greatly under my teaching and pastoring. God blest their lives. They experienced the best fellowship and joy in their Christian life while at FCC.
Then they were tricked into leaving the church by con men who used groundless slander. They did not bother to follow Matt. 18 and violated 1 Tim. 5:19. They did not deal with their sin but covered it up.
They never found a church where they experienced the same level of joy or teaching or pastoring. They float from church to church and end up going nowhere at all.
Sitting alone in their misery, they stew with bitterness that they are not back at FCC being blest. They see FCC members growing and being blest. They become jealous of them and end up hating them! The apostates have been left out of the blessings. Instead of repenting of their sins, they act out their frustration by attacking FCC and its leaders.
“Misery loves company.”
They want to trick FCC members into the same miserable life they have in the hope that they will regain the joy and fellowship they experienced back when they were together at FCC. But the hatred and anger eats them up inside and even when they get together, they end up venting their anger at not being at FCC. They talk more about Dr. Bob now than when they attended the church! How sad.
This is why Clark’s “church” fell apart. He tried to recreate the joy he experienced at FCC, but his lies and deceit finally came home to roast and the people grew tired of his hate speech.
Tom Maxham is not happy or blest. He has not been able to go on in his life with positive things to do and say. He is frustrated with the truth that he threw away his chance to be part of FCC by disobeying the leadership of the church. He dug his own grave. But, instead of accepting the guilt for what he did, he lashes out in pain and misery by blaming other people for the mess. He is feeling guilty for violating all the counseling principles he taught others. He is now doing what he condemned Clark for doing! Like a wolf, he has attacked the weak sheep he counseled and made them promise to violate Matt. 18 and 1 Tim. 5 by not checking out his silly accusations. His shame comes up as acid in his stomach. He cannot look at himself in the mirror. He is one sad miserable man.
How can these miserable, sad, bitter, people escape the snare of the devil into which they have fallen?
1. They must not cover their sin by blaming others. Adam and Eve tried to shift the blame off themselves to others. They are responsible for the choices they made. Blaming Dr. Bob, Cindy, etc. will not help them.
2. Admit to themselves and to others that they have sinned and this is why they are not being blest with those who attending at FCC.
3. If they saw the joy and fellowship we had at last Sat.’s Men’s breakfast, they would become angry and jealous that, while we were experiencing joy, they were being miserable.
3. They must apologize to those they conned into leaving FCC and tell them to swallow their pride and go back to FCC in repentance.
4. They must understand that while they can con some of the people some of the time, they will never be able to con all the people all the time. Thus they will fail at shutting FCC down. Dr. Bob will go on writing and preaching the Word. His new book will prove to be a great blessing. They are only speed bumps on the road of ministry.
5. They forget that Jesus promised that when His servants are persecuted and accused of every evil thing, His blessing on their ministry will increase in direct proportion to the attacks made upon them. The more they slander him, the more God blesses him!
6. Thus I am not depressed or dismayed by their silly and stupid accusations. They are making great rewards in heaven for me!
7. I spend my time doing the Lord’s work, such as writing the new book, while they spend their time doing the devil’s work, accusing the brethren. I am dancing with joy while they are screaming in rage!
8. I am encouraged by their attacks. You only get this kind of flack from the devil when you are dropping bombs on his stronghold. But, Satan will not distract me from writing the new book. Clark, Joel, Tom, etc. are only the flack that comes up when you are over the devil’s stronghold.

Again Dr. Morey said:

Dear Brothers,
It has come to my attention that a new “Liars Club” out there in slander-land and gossip-hill is claiming that I am not writing a book on on Natural Theology! If you run across these liars, rebuke them in the name of Jesus. Some of you have even proof read chapters for me.
Remember, all liars shall have their place in the lake of fire. (Rev. 21:8).
In obedience to the Word, I do not consider the “Legion of Doom” members, (eg. Joel, Clark, Tom, etc.) fellow-Christians. As long as they continue to run their “Liars Club,” they give no evidence of regeneration. When the book comes out, they will no doubt say I did not write it! They would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit them!
This is why I have been writing an autobiography for several years. It
will give the sad truth about such people for the historical record. They
will be remembered in church history for their hatred of my ministry and their lies, slander, and gossip.

Joel says: I think his words speak for themselves. He has the audacity to call good and godly people all these things simply because he heard from somewhere that someone said he is not going to finish writing his book. For a complete refutation of this non-sense, see my blog and the comments at: http://theocentricliving.blogspot.com/

Back to Dr. Morey’s comment in this OC Weekly blog, Morey said:

Just for accuracy sake, please note that biblicalthought.com/blog was not set up by or run by the church. I visit it from time to time when I have the time. But it is not my blog.

Joel says:
I think some of the main points have already been made about this. But yes, Dr. Morey’s picture dominates the rest of “the crew”. It is designed with the same colors and style of the Faith Defenders site as well as the Faith Community Church site. It is linked to the Faith Defender’s site. The contributing authors work for the church, the “university,” and Faith Defenders. Dr. Morey is the lord of the posts there. They censor out many who challenge them and when unable to defend themselves or back up their claims.

Dr. Morey said on the OC Weekly blog:

There are three new books that reveal a new phenomenon is taking place today in the church world.
1. Clergy Killers: Guidance for Pastors and Congregations Under Attack by G. Lloyd Rediger
2. Character Assassins: Dealing with Ecclesiastical Tyrants and Terrorists by Peter Hammond and Brian
3. The Wounded Minister: Healing from and Preventing Personal Attacks by Guy Greenfield
These books document that today when someone leaves a church, they do not go out and make a new life for themselves and get involved in positive works of charity. Instead, they dedicate all their time, money, and energy to destroy the church and pastor they left.
They hang around the church and use the internet to slander the church, send out malicious emails and blogs that contain unsupported accusations. They harass the people who attend the church with personal attacks and foul language. They forget there is freedom of religion in this country and people can attend or not attend whatever they want to attend.
The above authors counsel churches under attack by such terrorists not to react to these childish tirades and temper tantrums. Instead, we should remain positive and go on doing works of charity -while ignoring the terrorists.

Joel says:
Try reading the article I posted on my blog about How Ministries Abuse People. It describes exactly the tactics that Morey does to people. When people disagree with Morey and chose to leave his church he hounds after them and slanders their reputation with all manner of evil stories. The hundreds of people that have left his church over the years are all in new healthy fellowships and doing well. I am currently a member of good standing in my church. These people are not the ones who try to destroy his church and himself—he does that to himself when his sin finds him out. The multitudes of victims are now speaking out and he can’t take it. No one hangs around your church to slander and try to destroy—they run from your church for the hills. As for using the internet and sending out emails “that contain unsupported accusations,” all I have to say is that is it really believable that at least 100 people are all consorting together and lying or is it rather more believable that this one questionable man is the culprit? I have over a hundred pages of documentation and hours of video that shows the abusive tactics and slanderous lies. Dr Morey says that the people who leave his church: “They harass the people who attend the church with personal attacks and foul language.” No one harasses your people and no one especially launches personal attacks and foul language. If so, prove it. Show where I have used foul language in anything I have written. Pony up Dr. and prove it. The only one who uses foul language is you. You are the one who from the pulpit calls people “whores,” “fags,” “sluts,” “Lesbos,” “bastards,” etc. You are the one who speaks of a man “banging” and “screwing” his wife (i.e. the men doing this to their own wives, not Dr. Morey doing it to their wives). You are the one who tells dirty jokes to the men. You are the one who without a moment’s thought calls people “idiots,” “morons,” “fools,” “nimnus,” “stupid,” and “clowns.” Such is your modus operandi. You are the one who leaves slanderous messages on people’s answering machines. If we have forgotten that there is freedom on religion, then you sir have forgotten that there is equally freedom of speech and people are allowed to disagree with you and especially speak out when they are abused and lied about. You now resort to calling us “terrorists” who are throwing “temper tantrums”. You view people as stupid babies while you are the smartest man alive. You think that Muslim terrorists are all out to get you and now you resort to calling good Christians, terrorists. You have terrorists on the mind. You see them hiding in ever corner, under your bed, and in the closet. I imagine you think they also can shrink themselves and hide in your tail pipe and under your toilet seat.

Dr. Morey said on this OC Weekly blog:

These poor mentally unbalanced people, whose only meaning in life to tear down other people, will eventually burn themselves out with all their hatred and bitterness.
We at Faith community Church do not hate them or anyone else. We pray for them that they will grow out of their negativity and finds positive outlets for their energy.

Joel says:
Readers, this is one of his favorite tactics: to saddle those who leave his church with mental illness. I have seen him do this to at least five people who left his church. Now we are all mentally unbalanced and ill. If this is not slander, I don’t know what is. Listen to what he assumes about people. To assume that all these people’s only meaning in life is to tear down other people because they are filled with hatred and bitterness. Wrong again Bob, you are the one who uses people, abuses them, and then throws them under the bus when you are done with them. The problem here that you have created for yourself, however, is that you have thrown so many people under your bus, that you have created a mountain that will flip your short handicap bus. I know it is common fare for you to speak in the way I am about to, but I normally reserve such comments, but Bob you are a fool for posting here and taking this problem to this here venue.

As a dedicated Christian, I apologize to the non-Christian world for having to view this ugliness. All the people that I know of who have left FCC are now in good and healthy churches run by true shepherds who love and care about people. I will always defend the truth of the Christian worldview against any and all who oppose it, but men like Dr. Morey make this task ever more difficult. Enough is enough.

Anonymous said...

Very well put Joel.I've just reviewed all the audio of the DVD and now everything makes sense.We have left the church as of last week and look forward to where God will place us next.We thank God for using you to help show us the truth!

Joel Hughes said...

Wow. I was a little fired up in that last comment. As I said I wrote that for the OC Weekly blog but it never made it on for some reason. But Dr. Morey, or Bob, just needs to repent. The more he fights and the more he slanders people and the more he lies about people and situations, the more dirt will surface. Doesn't he know that calling other believers things like "terrorists" does not help his situation? Proverbs says that a harsh word stirs up anger but a kind word turns away wrath (not that we even had or have any "wrath").

Gustavo Arellano said...

Joel: I see what the problem was with your comment--it's too long and probably screws up our system. If you break it down by parts, I'll make sure it gets on our blog--sorry for the headache!

MOSHER PERIODICAL said...

Dr Bob,
I know you are reading this. I just know you are reading this!

You don't know how much you have been loved, and how so many have thought that if they didn't say anything about the problems going on, it might just be okay. ANd when they finally confront you with love, you blow them up.

Dr Bob, I write this because I love you and appeal to the Lord who is your master, that He might convict you of your immorality.

Your whole entry about biblical warrant over at biblical thought is interesting; If there is no biblical warrant to critique the lives of those who teach, then why do you always bring up the moral failures in the lives of Joseph Smith, Muhammed, Wallace Farad, Hank Hanegraff, Elijah Muhammed, etc?

Dr. Bob, you are a scheming money man and a man full of yourself, you know it, please repent to the Lord!

There are people out there that have picked up the shattered pieces you left behind, lives who are broken, there are those in ministry who have to counsel those whom you burned, and pray for you Dr. Bob.

Do not think for a moment that no one knows about the church you left before you came out to California, or the Truth Seekers event in Texas or with conferences with Parash or a whole of other things with what is going on now? THE LORD GOD KNOWS, AND HE WILL EXPOSE YOU EVEN MORE IF YOU DO NOT PUBLICALLY REPENT.

You can't have pre-emptive strike on everything Dr. Bob, listen, you've preached the Psalms, know that God's wrath is real.

MOSHER PERIODICAL said...

TO ALL WHO ARE READING THIS,

Please pray for Dr. Bob, this is so sad, as I read the various blogs of those who attend his church, I know they are believers and believe the same doctrinal conviction as most of you (REFORMED, PRESUPPOSITIONAL, BIBLICAL and loving JESUS)

This is just so sad, let us never think of the guys at his church are the same cut as Dr. BOb, when we respond to his followers. You all know more than I do the people still in his church.

We need to pray for guys like Danny, Mario, and Steven, they are our brothers who many of you dearly love; they are precious and the tough rhetoric and defense of Dr. Bob don't hide the fact that these brothers are worried for Dr. Bob and knows that there are some grain of truth to what everyone have been saying on this blog...

Brothers, I have been so humbled and broken this last week...

dave said...

moving this from part 3 to art 4. in listening to the audio files at http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media put together by the wesel brothers, it's apparent that robert morey has numerous times SCHEMEMED to steal monies from the saints, tell lies, slander them et. al. They even use the word scheme, that morey is known for weaving together seemingly brilliant schemes to con people out of their monies. It has come to light by reliable sources that when morey - with help of his crew - told lies from the pulpit about javier v. and lenny g. , that he subsequently had his properties placed into a trust, presumably for the purpose of protecting them from lawsuits (as in slander etc.). Further, he has reportedly discussed with others retiring to a certain south america country, that just happens to not have extradition to the U.S. in case one is prosecuted for various types of crimes and/or has lawsuits file against one. this sounds like classic morey scheming. would not. o. j. simpson, the sociopath be proud of robert morey and how he victimizes people, then puts things in place so they cannot get to his assets? at one time (according to insiders) when the building sale concludes, the $1M or so to go to morey would actually go to his family members and/or now to a trust that is protected from litigation. is it possible mr. morey is a sociopath in sheep's clothing? has he simply gone nuts? pray for the guy. pray now that more is coming to light, God, Creator of heaven and earth will deal with things as He sees fit. the saints are doing what they think is right to love thy neighbor in an attempt to shield others from being victims of mr. morey. we need God's help as well in this matter.

mark said...

This entered at OC Weekly. Has not gone up yet, maybe they having system problems?

In the post of April 25, 2008 21:59, for the non-Christian readers just wanted to clarify the use of the term "cult." While the teaching of the Bible at FCC under mr. morey is orthodox and non-heretical (pertaining to essential Christian doctrine and most of his teaching) and is not opposed to historical Christian orthodox teaching, it is mr. morey's running of the church and treatment of people that is largely at issue. i.e., he utilizes many of the same tactics and schemes that classic cults take advantage of in victimizing and preying upon the innocent. But because his teaching is orthodox and because he is a persuasive communicator, many good Christians are sucked unwittingly into idolizing this predator, not seeing his schemes for what they are. For example, for about the first 3 years of FCC, mr. morey was personally taking home the "uncounted" cash donations made at the sunday and weekly services.

Yes you heard that right. People were placing donations into the offering basket each service (checks, cash in sealed envelopes, and loose cash). The ushers collected the baskets and two ushers in a back room dumped all contents into a bank bag. However, they didn't do what all churches of financial integrity do. The ushers didn't count the loose cash, record the amount in a separate record, and give the amount and cash to the bookkeeper/accountant for deposit at the local bank. Instead moron took all the monies home, keeping the loose cash stored at his residence. Essentially he ran the church as his own private piggy bank. This smacks of a classic mafia skimming operation. Criminal love handling uncounted cash because it can be easily skimmed and is virtually unprovable that monies were stolen off the top. Virtually no one in the church was aware he was taking home uncounted, loose cash (except for key staff members), although it was happening before their very eyes. Even after this scheme was finally exposed and brought to light, utilizing cult tactics, mr. morey successfully conned about 240 church member into remaining at FCC, while about 60 brave souls told mr. morey they were falling for it (for the apparent schemes of a con man).

This is how blinded and caught up in idolatry people were regarding morey's teaching that they were told they could not get anywhere else in the U.S. Thus, they become so fascinated by his "teaching abilities" that they make the mistake and overlook his many moral and character flaws in their lust for "knowledge." [in fairness, this is not to say the members who remained are stupid individuals. morey is good. It's possible for good people to be fooled at times. These things happen. But eventually God shines the light] Most who've left FCC have repented of this error and some seek to now warn others (loving their neighbor) about this man's predatory tactics/schemes.

At first, people think they are lone victims and show mercy to mr. morey not seeking to expose him [hoping he'll repent]. But recently they have learned he's been carrying on his same schemes in many states and their are countless victims. This is partly why many now desire to see some kind of justice done in preventing this man from harming one more innocent person. Thanks Gustavo for giving the people a voice. Normally Christians try to deal with these matters in private, but mr. morey has made that impossible. He has chosen this way.

Anonymous said...

Mark,

Great post, very informative. Try breaking it up and posting it in pieces on OC WEEKLY. These events described in your post are sad but true. May we learn from this and be more on guard to spot schemes like these in the future. That we may not fall prey to they so easily. Thanks for the info.

Clark said...

A lot of things have been said here with little or no documentation, things like:

"Morey is going to walk away from the sale of the building with a cool 1 million."

"Morey is heading to South America to escape possible prosicution."

It is said that this information comes from "reliable sources." I am not saying these things are not true I am only saying that it is of little use posting things like this without documentation. There are numerous "works of darkness" committed by Morey that have multiple witnesses and are amply documented.

Simply stating that Morey is going to make a million dollars from the sale of the building does not necessarily mean he is commiting a sin by doing so. What about the other investors who helped (in good conscience) purchase that building, some of whom may walk away with a lot more than Morey? Are they in sin too as is being implied? I say these things because in such a situation it is easy to lose one's objectivity and to committ some of the same errors Morey has been denounced for.

When I wrote my open letter to Bob I tried as hard as I could to leave out any unneccessary information that could not be backed up. While I had to include some things (like personal conversations between Bob and me) the majority of my argument against Bob was based upon public statements and written documents.

When the Wessels made their complaints against Bob they went to great lengths to document them, which is admirable, as opposed to Morey's tactic of covering his sin with vicious lies and slander.

Again, I'm not saying these things are untrue or questioning the motives of those who've said them (especially since I don't know who these people are). But if our motive is love for our neighbors by persuading them of the truth of Morey's sins then I don't think the use of undocumented claims is helpful or appropriate. If these claims are true (and I would not be suprised at all if they are) and can be proven, then by all means show the world. If there are circumstances preventing the evidence showing these claims to be true from being made public, then making these claims without evidence lowers them to the level of rumor and gossip. This (IMO) lowers the strength of arguments being made.

Mike W said...

Joel:
I've spent the last couple of weeks going to and fro from your blog to Glenn Hendrickson's blog to Biblical Thought blog and now to the OC Register blog. Here are some observations that may be unable to be properly discerned in the condition that everyone appears to be in.
If we look at what is going on here from a birdseye view seeing all parties at the same time blogging here and blogging there--charges--counter charges, etc etc.
What do we observe? Sin. Depravity. It is out of control here. And there. There is enough of it to go around everywhere. Even I am engaging in sin by going to and fro from blog to blog--hungering for more gossip, slander--trying to find truth somewhere.
"Let God be true and all men liars."
In addition, you have the Jude 4s cruising in and out of each blog--stirring the kettle--like the snake cuddling up to Eve and then deceiving her.
Dr Morey may in fact be everything you say he is. But what are you becoming here, Joel? Look closely at yourself? Are you advancing the kingdom? Is all this pleasing God?
It has now spilled out into the "secular" blogs. The unbelievers look at us and say, "You see--they're all a bunch of hypocrites"
There's a need for repentence all the way around here. From all sides. It's a disgrace and shames the Kingdom.

MOSHER PERIODICAL said...

Mike W,
Amen! Can you also post what you wrote on Biblical thought?
I thought there were evidence marshalled forth, and not only in gossip rumors?
Especially with the links?
Maybe we have to apply a bit of Presup, Van Tillian style and talk about philosophy of facts:
What would constitute evidence? If testimonies are not enough, what else is needed?

Dr. BOb also is notorious for critiquing those he disagree by revealing the teacher's moral bankruptcy, such as the Pope, Muhammed, etc...how can he dish it out but not take criticism of guys who love him? These guys are not radical muslim terrorists, but fellow brothers who love him!

Joel Hughes said...

To Mosher -
Excellent words. We do need to pray and continue to pray for Dr. Bob and those so ardently defending him right now. I know Drew and Mario and we had many good times of fellowship together. I pray that we could share that again one day. Since this all began, I have tried to keep the Proverb in mind that says to not rejoice when your enemy falls. Now I am not saying Morey is necessarily my enemy or that he has even toppled. But whatever happens, in one sense we rejoice when justice is seen and good people are vindicated, but we do not rejoice with a diabolical heart even when our enemy suffers. If it were not for God's grace, we would be no different or worse. But it is very hard to read Morey’s comments about him dancing with joy while those who left are pathetic, sad, ruined individuals as him not rejoicing over the (alleged) sufferings of these people. I say “alleged” because most of them, like myself, have moved on and are serving the Lord in new churches. But a man of Morey's stature and position has a lot to lose and thus the psychological web of justification, rationalization, excuses, and lying is darkly deep. It will be God's mighty grace that causes him to publicly repent. There would be a lot to repent for and a lot of work toward any sort of restoration, but God could do it and the saints would forgive. If such a day ever occurred the people of God would be renewed in godly fear. The church of Jesus Christ would be purified not just from Morey's repentance, but a thousand other lives who would hear of it.

To Clark -
Also excellent and timely words. I could not agree more. To all commentors, please know that I truly appreciate any and all support, but let us all strive to speak on only things we know or have solid evidence for. Let us shy away from speculation and opinion. If you have a story, an experience, or a testimony, please share it. But let's all be careful of assuming too much about a person's heart, about things they have done in the dark, and about things yet to come. Else, as Clark said, all the rest of the solidly provable charges that we have will also become suspect. Like Clark, I would not be surprised if any of these things came to pass. For example, I have a solid witness that says Morey does want to retire to a certain place in South America. In fact, it is confirmed by two solid witnesses. But even if we have a hundred witnesses to that, as Clark said, it is in itself still not a sin to retire there. It may indeed be a part of a larger scheme that many are catching onto, but at this point we don’t know the future. As far as the building sale and things, only time will tell. Here it is in a nutshell: we have so much solid evidence already to prove our points (and so many points have not even been brought out yet), that we do not even need to resort to an ounce of speculation to show Morey's many many sins.

To Mike W -
Thanks for your comment. Permit just a little speculation on my part, but it sounds like my deadly young Jedi friend from FCC. Regardless of who you are, let me address some things you said. You said: “Dr Morey may in fact be everything you say he is. But what are you becoming here, Joel? Look closely at yourself? Are you advancing the kingdom? Is all this pleasing God?”

Joel says:
Here is what I am becoming and I hope this effect is happening to many others reading about this: it is all putting a renewed fear of God in me. It is leading me to pray more and to examine my own self more fearfully for elements of hypocrisy in my own life. You ask if I am advancing the kingdom. When Morey seeks to expose false prophets, heretics, cult leaders, and bad teachers like word of faith teachers, emergent teachers, or even Rick Warren, I ask, is he advancing the kingdom? When Paul commands Timothy in 1 Tim. 5:20 to rebuke sinning elders in the presence of all, is that advancing the kingdom? When a pastor caught in adultery steps down, is the kingdom advanced? When people repent of their sins, is the kingdom advanced? When I show godly love to my family, is the kingdom at that moment advanced? When I love my neighbor as myself, is the kingdom at that point advanced? When the light shines in the darkness, is the kingdom advanced even more? I believe the answer to all these is yes. So Mike, I have both first hand knowledge of Morey’s sins and I have dozens of good Christian people who also testify of these same things. As our fellow brother evidentialists often like to say, “the evidence is overwhelming.” So if Morey is guilty of what the historical pattern shows, and if he is moved to public repentance (and in my opinion, stepping down from ministry), then yes what I and others are doing is in fact, advancing the kingdom of God and God is indeed pleased.

Mike said:
“Even I am engaging in sin by going to and fro from blog to blog--hungering for more gossip, slander--trying to find truth somewhere.”

Joel says:
This sentence is one reason why I think you are from FCC (which is fine and good). But you used what I call Dr. Bob’s “double-barrel shotgun,” namely the dual combo of “gossip and slander”. He uses this so much that it his very own mantra and now I see all the BT crew using this same one-two. I will probably say more about this shot-gun tactic at a later point.
Also I have not really been aware of any Jude 4s in my blog. Maybe some people have been a bit rude or crass or speculative, but not many Jude 4s. But those at FCC and BT have sure called me a Jude 4: read Stephen’s blog/study on the book of Jude. He applies it to those who left that church.
As far as the “secular” blogs, I have no idea how that got in the OC Weekly. I would have never posted a word in there but Travis (a Moreyite) foolishly jumped in headlong and commented, and then Morey did. As far as having to repent of certain sins. If there are I hope God will show them to me and he probably will in time. However, let me say how I have felt through all this. I never anticipated that things would get as they have. But so many people have spoken out. But how have I personally felt through all this? Well, on the one hand, I like many of you have a fighting spirit, an apologist at heart. Thus I fight. But I feel like I am fighting for Jesus’ church, for the people of God, and for the many friends I have who Morey has greatly harmed. But on the other hand, I have felt very grieved at times over having to do this (not to mention I am grieved by the many awful things said about many of us by the BT crew and especially Morey and Stephen). But I can say this with confidence, that I have not felt like I am grieved because I am in sin and the Holy Spirit is trying to convict me, no it is a different sort of grief feeling; rather I feel like a pastor would feel who has to publicly discipline one of his erring members. You do it because you are obligated to the truth above all things, but as a human, as a man made in God’s image, as one renewed by Holy Spirit and who now knows what the fruits of the Spirit are, I feel sad. I am sad by all this. I am sad for Bob. He could be so mightily used of God. Again, I say that if I knew of his personal sins and struggles in his life and he was repenting and seeking help on it, I would say nothing. We all have our personal besetting sins and struggles, and I believe in most of these cases, love covers a multitude of sin; but when those sins are carried over into the public realm, into the pulpit, and innocent people are harmed repeatedly, then it is time for people to speak out and call for repentance. I have said enough. That’s where I am at.

mark said...

clark makes good point that if morey does make a nice windfall of $ off the building sale, it may not be a sin. possibly those who architected the contracts arranged it that way to bless morey. what potentially is at issue is morey's possible scheming on purpose to destroy the church to force a sale so that he can get his dough. i.e., "let's ruin people's lives so i get my dough." obviously this is speculation. but with guys like moron ey, by the time you wait for the documentation, he's pulled the con and fled the scene, leaving a tornado of damage. (the forced speculation is based on his past actions and the best predictor of the future is the past). his actions of recent years are so horrendous, that if forces people to speculate on his motives, intentions and future moves, just as the police might do in trying to track down a serial killer. sometimes you have to rely on Holy Spirit insights that may give you warnings about a person. it's a very difficult situation to deal with, which is why we must all ask for mercy and grace for both sides in this matter.

Anonymous said...

I agree that it is not profitable to engage in gossip and speculation regarding Morey's profit motives in the building or criminal actions, or where he wants to retire, or whether or not his assets are in trust. This is exactly the kind of "wild accusations" he always loves to use to justify himself. I can just picture him up there saying to his sheep "you know they are saying that I am going to steal a million dollars, put it in trust and run off to Belize." Then everyone laughs at how ridiculous it sounds.

Just to clarify a couple of facts, I personally have only heard him mention retiring in the country of Belize, which is in Central America and not South America. Second, putting ones assets into a trust does not protect them from lawsuits. He would still have to pay for any fraud or slander lawsuits that were brought against him. Usually people put their homes and assets into trusts for estate planning purposes, to avoid probate costs or estate taxes.

There are plenty of facts out there to discredit Morey. If someone has hard, cold facts regarding him stealing or embezzling then by all means they should be brought to light. But propogating this kind of ignorance and mis-information just gives Morey more fodder for his war.

Joel Hughes said...

Good words anonymous. Let's stick with the facts.

A Nonny Mouse said...

Who told you about the card for Patty? You made that claim after talking about Mike, so was it Linda that witnessed this event?

a nonny mouse said...

Stilll waiting for an answer about card. I can't believe its true if you don't tell me that, which means i can't believe other things you say either.

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