Dear blog readers,
Posting what I am here was not something I wanted to do. I have made this clear in my previous blogs about Morey. I extended mercy to him several times now. Yet he has now repeatedly called me and other faithful believers all inflamatory names under heaven: apostate, heretics, antichrists, unregenerate, the legion of doom, fallen away, reprobate, non-Christians etc. Thankfully there are many people reading these several blogs right now who are seeing through it. For he says more about his own heart than he does about ours. What I am posting now is the letter I wrote him when I officially resigned from the church, Jan. 21st, 2007. I ask you to read it and ask yourself: do I sound like those things he is now saying? Am I filled with hatred and bitterness and jealousy as he and his crew say I am? I will let you decide. At that time the only people who have ever seen this letter are Dr. Morey and Tom Maxham. I have only given it since to my current pastor. I wrote this before Clark wrote his open letter, and he never saw this nor did he know what I wrote about, but the similarities are striking. Also for the record, I never said that Dr. Morey is not going to write his book. I have no clue where he got that from. It's not in any email I have sent out. Also, the fact that he brings Clark into this shows further how he is clueless about what is going on. I have not talked with Clark in months, and he just called me two days ago asking me what in the world is going on. But the tactics, antics, and insane assumptions made over there now well deserve a response. And this will be just the beginning. What formerly was a private letter of resignation to Dr. Morey is now a public letter for all to see.
Dear Dr. Bob,
It is with great regret and reluctance that I find myself writing this letter. I wish I was not writing this. My heart truly hurts over my decision. Please consider this letter as my and my family’s formal retraction of our church membership at Faith Community Church. As the head of my home, I have made this decision out of conscience and much thought; I can no longer in good faith attend the church and sit under your influence.
I cannot express enough that I wish this were not the case. You have been one of my heroes of the faith. I have profited immensely from your teachings. My family and I have profited a great deal from our time at the church. I truly appreciate the teaching and serving experiences that you have given me, as well as the strong encouragement that meant very much to me coming from you. When people have asked me what I want to do in life, I usually say that I want to be like my pastor to the degree that God allows me—I want to pastor, teach, lecture, write, and debate. I have worked so hard and sacrificed so much to do that (nearly 10 years now). However, there have been actions and attitudes on your part that I have not wanted to imitate. While every pastor has his struggles and weaknesses, in the beginning and for several years now, I just tried to look over some of these and give mercy and grace, for love covers a multitude of sins. But they added up and my respect for you over the last couple of years has silently eroded in my heart.
Why did I never say anything? Why did I never confront you on any of these things you might wonder? Well, the truth is because having the “thick rhino skin” that you do, and seeing how you have treated other people who have tried to correct you—and especially how you have then later mocked those people from the pulpit, I figured it would do nothing except make me questionable in your eyes. I would be a trouble maker untrustworthy for any sort of leadership. Moreover, one of your own top staff members told me that he directly confronted you on the unbiblical nature of debt (or more like plunging your already broke church into more huge debt), and he told me that you tried to give some excuse from the Proverbs and then tried to change the subject. This reminds me of your last Sunday sermon where you tried to use the Proverbs to justify why it is alright to break promises. And so I said to myself, Dr. Morey is not perfect; I can live with some of these things, especially since I do profit so much from the teaching and the church body. But this recent episode dealing with Clark is the last straw for me.
I want to make it clear that I am not leaving the church because of anything Clark did or said. I am not leaving because he persuaded me to follow him or because he asked me to leave the church. That is emphatically not the case. That has never happened. I have almost left this church several times already for other various reasons explained below. What has happened between you and Clark is the straw that broke this camel’s back; I have made the decision for my family to leave, not because I am following Clark or any such thing, I am leaving because of how you treated Clark and how you have handled this whole situation. But this is not the only reason. It is one of seven reasons, many I have overlooked, but can do so no longer. I suppose I will just list them out, not so much that I think that they will change you—I do not really think they will which is why I never said anything—but rather to show that my decision to leave is not based on whim or rash emotions. I am not a rebel. And I do sincerely pray that God will use these to help you see some things. But I must also say that the reason I am choosing to resign tomorrow is because I think it necessary to take a stand against what you are doing.
1. There are too many taxes on the people to support your programs. One thing that really made me cringe happened before I ever came to the ministry, now probably over four years ago. In one of your mailings from Faith Defenders that I received you were appealing for your mailing list to donate as much money as they could, and then you cited Acts 5 about Ananias and Sapphira. You then clearly implied that if we do not give our money, then a similar judgment could be in store for us also! From what I heard this letter was what caused the Calvary Chapel book store and Distribution to forever remove all your products from their shelves.
Furthermore, the whole Crusader’s Club seemed more like a money making scheme than a legitimate ministry that cares about people. You have to pay all this money every month to get a couple trinkets and some information that should just be free. And the person with the most money is the one who gets the highest rank! It seemed to me like the titles and offices were bought, rather than earned. Also all the thousands of dollars spent on the fancy banquets each year seems like priorities are out of place since there was usually public complaints from the pulpit that we have no money and have other debts to pay off. There seems to me to be too much focus on money, too many appeals to pay for huge debts, and even divine threatenings and guilt-trips to pay these (your!) debts off.
A recent example of such a threat was when you used Micah four to raise money for the roof (I still have the handout), making us feel that God is holding some exact numerical debt against us, and His blessings will not flow until we have repaid Him for robbing Him every week of our Christian life that we failed to tithe or empty our savings account out for. What is even worse is that in your Hermeneutics course—that I am (or was) teaching the men in our discipleship meetings right now—you outright condemn preachers who go back to the OT and use Micah four to support their building programs! Moreover, the church donated tens of thousands of dollars for CBUS, plus pays out multiple salaries every month to those who are creating it. Now I fully support CBUS and am thoroughly impressed with the work that has been accomplished there. But how much money has gone to just one more project again when apparently the church can barely pay its rent? This small body of believers—many who have left for various similar reasons as all these listed in this letter—have given hundreds of thousands of dollars to this ministry: to send your books out, to get into the building, to put you on the radio (twice), to build your school, to fix the building, to pay your program directors (i.e. “staff”), etc. Enough is enough.
2. There is too much public and private rudeness, crudeness, and harshness toward other people—especially fellow believers. I agree with you in your teaching “God Mocked Them”. But this is toward blatant cult members and pagan priests. My heart has so often been grieved at how you make fun of and belittle other Christians who you disagree with. It is not just me, even much of your own staff cringes. Also some of the crassness you have used about men and women when it is just us guys often makes me sick (e.g. talking about guys “screwing” or “banging” their wives). Finally, I have often been disappointed at how you misrepresent people, the alleged things they have said or did, or the positions they allegedly believe. This is one of the main reasons that this ministry has not grown larger, because it surely could be far more influential. But I know so many people who will never listen to you again because of these things. Enough is enough.
3. There is a loss of priority in this local church body: your personal projects aimed at people out there take priority over the needs of the people right here at home. Something that has repeatedly grieved me in this ministry is that it seems that you care more about your own promotion and programs than you do about the health and people at Faith Community Church. I believe the church has suffered for this. You talked a lot about the men’s discipleship program and you would often ask the men how it has changed their lives. But honestly, how much have you ever really invested in us? How did you disciple the handful of men who helped you lead this church? What time did you spend with them on a regular basis preparing them for the pastorate, which they all desire? None of us are allegedly ready and mature enough to be pastors, but you never did much to help us to be “ready.” Did you pour your time into us on a regular basis? I told you several times what my desire is. I made it clear that I want to be involved with you in ministry more and to know you more. But every time you talk to me, you only talk at me (for you rarely if ever talk with me or listen to my thoughts), and I end up thinking to myself: “What is he talking about? That is not right about me? He doesn’t even know me. But he is assuming all these things about me.” After four years, you have this young man in your church who is so hungry to grow and be a pastor, and yet you have barely taken any time to get to know me. In fact, there are several of us like this. Telling us to read some of your books and tapes is just not the same as having a live pastor show us the ropes. I got very little from men’s discipleship, for when you did show up you either talked about debt or the building or “Bob Morey Live!”, or you put us to work outside. This of course was not every time. The times you did teach were profitable and were what gave me hope to continue coming. I had great hope when we started the eldership meetings, but then you began to not show up to those also. I guess things like the radio program or the university or your book took all your energy.
I cannot help but think that our church would be thriving today if you had let go of half of the “staff” who work on your “programs,” and put their salaries toward a few men from our congregation as ordained elders. The “staff” of the “ministry” was always growing, but the true spiritual leaders who are to oversee the church—that is over 200 people in number!—have never even grown by one more. The church has existed for about five years (and Faith Defenders even longer), and God has brought you some amazing men who have served you from the beginning. Does it take more than five years to know that a man is faithful and able? It only took Jesus a little over three years to find his men, and Paul often less time. Is that a biblical requirement, five or more years of service? Such men who work so hard to be pastors and sacrifice so much eventually get discouraged and question their calling. I think of us who are in that eldership meeting each month. I wonder how many more years we would be strung along with some faint hope that our calling would finally be recognized and come to fruition—especially since we are all in many ways already serving the church in this capacity, but just without the title or pay!
Moreover, it does not seem biblical or responsible to plunge the church into so much debt for your radio program when we are already so far in debt with the building to begin with. When every staff member urged against it, you went ahead with it. The board I guess allowed it. The church seems to be run then by some semi-secular board of two people—one woman and one man who (according to my knowledge) is not even a member—and is not run by a spiritual board of male elders as the Bible mandates. Some of the choices made in obtaining the building seem sketchy to me as well, like the immensely high interest rate (esp. when we were so small) or the L.P. who are the ones who then own and have the ultimate say of what to do with the building. Also renting it out to questionable and even heretical organizations always struck me as odd, given that we are Faith Defenders (but if you legitimately did not know that some of these churches were true heretics, then scratch that complaint). And nothing personal against John and Ruthann (I enjoy conversations with John), but were their jobs crucial to the ministry? Should we have to actually pay for an editor and a choir director? Are those things even essential? Are those jobs more important than the one assistant you did have? And why did your wife Anne receive a full time salary? I didn’t know that being a pastor’s wife was a full time paid position. Staff is cut and laid off to save money, but not our editor and choir director—jobs they should have done for free! and which others in our body would have done for free. The Bible says that Elders who “rule well” should be counted worthy of double honor. You may get the double honor for laboring in word and doctrine, but from the sample listed above, it does not seem that you rule this church well: it seems more to me as a means to an end—a financial vehicle to finance your personal ministry programs. Enough is enough.
4. There appeared to be an arbitrary choice of deacons, thus further supporting the above mentioned problems. Many people also saw this and I think was one reason that led them to eventually leave. To be honest, I did not understand why those chosen were chosen, and why others who should have been chosen, were not. And the reasons offered in defense of those chosen were either unbiblical or arbitrary. For example, in our public members meeting, many people asked you why certain people were chosen. Why was I chosen? Your reason from the pulpit was that I cleaned the bathrooms and did janitorial work. But that was a job the ministry paid me for as they would any other person or company. Also during that meeting you said that I had not been doing that job for several months! At that time I was working on courses/syllabi for CBUS. It showed me that you had no clue as to what I was doing. It showed me that you had no idea why I was being nominated as a deacon. Is that ruling the church well? When they asked why Mike Robirds is a deacon, you actually said because he lays carpets and can get discounts on carpet! When they asked why another one was chosen, you said because he oversees CBUS. But this again is a paid position separate from the church. On the other hand, there were people like the Henson’s, the Montgomery-Scott’s, the Villigran’s, and others who labored every week for the church and who would have loved to serve as deacons. While Mike Robirds is worthy indeed to be a deacon (as the above mentioned), Javier at the time actually served in the church far more, was a faithful member, and he actually worked on our air conditioning units much more than Mike laid our carpets! And no offense to Judy, but what does she really do except greet people at the door? Heather Henson labored far more in all kinds of ways in the church. When we lost Heather and Denise, we lost, among other things, an amazing kids choir program. The children suffered spiritually when we lost that, since so often I or some other person with no musical ability was forced to go up and lead them in weekly worship. Many of the choices made smacked to many people of favoritism and arbitrariness. While I believe all who were chosen were indeed worthy to be deacons, the public reasons you offered to justify these choices was uninformed and unbiblical. Enough is enough.
5. I believe that there were unfair and abusive tactics used against the Villigran family. Before he and his family were officially ex-communicated, I was trying to listen to both sides (as I tried to do in this recent conflict, especially since you made it a public affair). Javier shared with me some of the tactics and things you did, such as leaving six or seven hostile messages on his answering machine, the last ones where you are yelling. For some reason you also brought out on those messages some sort of threatening about him being accused of child molestation. When I talked to him on the phone the man was weeping. He was so deeply hurt over the whole thing. The parable about gossip that a brother read on Sunday morning, mocked and made fun of them, calling them names in a snobbish tone and the whole tone of the parable was not one of grief and sorrow, but mockery and pomp. There were other things that greatly troubled me during that time, but I do not remember them any longer. While I forget at this time many of the tactics used back then, I do not forget the tactics used now against Clark.
6. I believe that there are unfair, abusive, and unbiblical tactics used against Clark currently. This is the final straw that has broken this camel’s back. I have calmly and patiently listened to the both of you, and I just cannot bring myself to believe that Clark is guilty of some of the things that you publicly accused him of. I have known Clark for ten years now. Your stories are contradicting each other. I hate being in this place, but I have come to believe for the most part what Clark is saying. You publicly rebuked him as a rebel during the whole congregation! And this only a day-and-a-half after you spoke with him about his plan to start a church. You gave him no warning, no phone call, no private meeting as Matthew 18 would have us do. You told me that the Friday conversation was rushed and not conducive to clear communication. But then without clear facts you rushed to print Sunday morning to publish a smear job. Even your current defenders who were there have admitted to me that you basically sucker punched this man who has faithfully served you full time for the last four years! This to me seems to be an abuse of power, an abuse of your position of an elder. You told me he jumped the gun, but it sure seems to me that you didn’t jump the gun—you shot your co-worker with it!
The day before you did this, I hung out with Clark all day. He and Dana were happy and thankful that you (while reluctant or sad to let him go), were nevertheless going to accept his choice and be council for him when he needs it. He was shocked by what happened Sunday. He told me that day that when he heard about what happened, he felt like someone punched him in the face. Among other things, that Sunday (01-13-07) you told the congregation that Clark is not guilty of any moral or doctrinal sin, but then you accused him of the following things:
1. He is trying to split or divide the church and steal sheep.
2. He doesn’t care if you do not accept his ordination from you, he will just ordain himself.
3. He is going to try to take as many people with him as he can.
4. That various people have called you or the ministry and told you these things.
Moreover, you told me Monday night in your car the following:
5. That Clark told T.J. that the building is actually sold and that Dr. Bob is hiding the money.
Conveniently, the recording from the end of your message is edited out of the audio CD. However, charges 1-3 do fall into moral and doctrinal issues, which he is guilty of if that is what he said and what he intends, as you say he did and does. Thus already you have publicly contradicted yourself. First of all, just knowing Clark, I have a real hard time believing that he said and did these things. In fact, I don’t. But more importantly, for charges 1-4, where are your witnesses that allegedly called you or the ministry saying all this? A man should be able to face his accusers and have a fair trial before he is hung in public. In fact, throughout this week, your charges of things against Clark have not only grown in exaggeration and nature, but you yourself have resorted to judging his motives and heart: saying he is doing these things out of “hatred, gossip, and slander.” You make him sound like some plotting master-mind who maliciously set out to slam you and split your church. Give me a break. Such tactics reveal to me more about you than they do about Clark.
I cannot accept your charge that Clark is trying to split the church and steal sheep. These few families approached Clark with the idea and willingly made this decision themselves. They are not stupid people who can’t think for themselves. They were not coerced or deceived by him to follow him and turn against you. And why not, it makes good sense since they all live within a stone’s throw of each other and also all live so far away from the ministry. Do you know that since I have been serving at F.C.C. and teaching there, probably 8 to 10 solid people have said to me that if I ever started a church in their area (given our high number of commuters), they would attend it. Does that mean that if I did start a church, I’m guilty of splitting your church and stealing your sheep? Of course not. And this is in no way my intention.
I cannot accept your charge that Clark doesn’t care about whether you ordain him or not, he will just ordain himself. This is just silly.
I cannot accept your charge that Clark is going to try to take as many people with him as he can. He did not call anyone in the church and try to get them to follow him. This smells of just one more of your many careless exaggerations that are not afraid to hurt another’s character and reputation. Names of these people who are telling you all these awful things would sure be helpful to your case.
I cannot accept your claim that various people called you or the ministry to say all this. If so, where are these witnesses? That Sunday night I spoke to Tom on the phone and he said that one way or another you all would have to get together and try to work this thing out, even if you agree to disagree. This is what Clark wanted. Yet you then refused to meet. And then you e-mailed him and said that the issue is done, and according to Titus 3:10 you could no longer associate with him! The verse says that he is a factitious and divisive (heretic) man. He is? It also says reject such a person after the first and second admonition. Where were these two admonitions? This is too much for me to handle. These accusations are so strong, yet so unfounded. Further, Clark first informed you that he was going to start this church on Friday when you two spoke on the phone. On Monday (1-15-07) you emailed him a letter where you said: “Having listened this morning to your phone messages, that you wanted to discuss my sermon, I will have Tim send you a copy so you can hear it first hand. Once you hear it, I am open to you coming down and sitting down with Tom and the board to discuss it” (emphasis mine). This you said on Monday. The very next day, Tuesday the 16th, you emailed him saying that on the basis of Titus 3:10, you are “bound by the word of God to officially refrain from any further contact with you. It is better for both of us to go our different ways before we destroy any hope of future friendship. In this light I am no longer going to meet with you, take your phone calls, or response to letters or emails. The issue is over.” This is strange to me. For when I spoke to Tom on Sunday evening about your sermon, Tom said that the three of you would surely have to get together to work this all out, even if you have to agree to disagree. On Monday, you said that you were open to meeting with Clark, with Tom and the board there also. But then one day later on Tuesday you closed the case and put the file away forever. You said that it was done and you would refuse to any more speak with Clark. What? Is that what the Bible calls for? Is that what you taught us to do? Moreover, when I spoke to Tom on Friday, he told me that you have kept him totally out of the loop in this whole situation (except emails). But he said that he has not talked with you at all since your Sunday sermon. Why would Tom not be involved in this as he himself even expected as the church counselor? This to me seems suspicious. Especially since to this day Clark says he is more than willing to come in all alone and work this whole thing out, even if to agree to disagree.
Now if you respond to me that Clark sharing these emails to me is some sort of confidential breech or gossip, well, then, I just have to point out a few things. First, he did not offer them to me or blindly email them to me. I point blank asked him to send them to me because I was having a hard time believing that you could say some of the things claimed. Second, you yourself CCd all these emails to other people. Finally, you yourself don’t seem to shy away from making private counseling information public! So if you try to point your finger at me for using some of these emails, you are shooting yourself, for in those emails, you reveal private information about another person, even private by law.
If I may also add, charge 5 above is also ridiculous. You told me that Clark told T.J. that the building is sold and Dr. Bob is hiding the money. When I told Clark you said this he laughed for nearly 30 seconds. I just don’t believe it; I don’t believe that he said what you said he said. Now he may of said something that is sort of remotely kind of barely dealing with that subject, but I can’t help but believing that the way you put it is just another exaggeration to support you and hurt him. [Note added later: when Clark asked T.J. about this, T.J. flatly denied that Clark ever said this, thus showing Dr. Bob blatantly just made this story up to me that night in his van]
Finally, you sent out several emails to various people in the church stating that Clark was in counseling with yourself and Tom, and in those sessions, Clark confessed to some secrete dark sin. What! First, Clark denies ever being in counseling with you two and says that if he was then there would be detailed records of dates, times, and events as there are with every other case. There would be a confidentiality agreement signed by him as there is with every other case, and you should be able to produce all these documents. Can you produce these documents to support your accusations? Further, such sessions and what is discussed is supposed to be of the utmost confidentiality. Even if it were true, how could you ever reveal something like that in public? I would be horrified if you told the congregation that I or my family was in counseling for some very serious issues. This destroys any sort of trust in the alleged confidentiality in F.C.C.’s counseling program. Let us just say all this is true, you must realize that you are using another person’s confidential confession as a weapon against him. This confirms that you do indeed fight dirty. You did similar tactics against Javier, and unfortunately for you, it is all on tape with that one. And now when in confrontation again, you resort to threats and low blows. Well, this is low, if not legally liable. I am ashamed of you sir.
You are right; this whole thing did not have to happen. I just wonder why you were not more anxious to try to meet and work through any misunderstandings as the Bible in so many places calls us to do. Why were you so quick to attack him publicly and then cut him off and shut the door? Enough is enough. But I have one more reason that I can no longer attend the church and submit myself to your leadership.
7. I have always cringed at the massive amount of self-promotion and boasting you do. I have never in my life heard a Christian teacher, pastor, or scholar, promote himself and boast in his abilities as much as I have heard you do. I could not even imagine hearing Alfred, MacArthur, Sproul, Schaeffer, Piper, White, Swindoll, or even Bahnsen talk so much about themselves and how smart and great they are (in contrast to all the idiot nimnu’s out there). You rarely if ever have a good word to say about other good and godly men. Even with men of your caliber you usually immediately mention their flaws and problems. I have said to a few people before in private that I think your ministry and influence could be huge, as big as a MacArthur or a Swindoll, if you only cut out the crassness, harshness, and all the boasting about yourself. I have so many friends who would be going to F.C.C. but have been utterly turned off because of such behavior. I wonder how many others over the years are in the same boat. The men who do have such huge ministries rarely ever speak of themselves. I do believe that you genuinely love God and wish to see Him glorified, but that is what makes this all the more baffling, for this last observation of mine seems to contradict that thesis.
It is time for me to bring this letter to a close. I could contend with many, many of the things you have said over this last week, even your message about ordination and being sent. While I agree that this is the ideal situation, i.e., to be sent out by a local church with their blessing—something I desired from this fellowship, it also seems that if too much is made out of it then we climb in bed with Rome’s teaching of apostolic succession. For was Martin Luther sent? But did not God ordain and send and use him? Indeed. Many others like this could be mentioned. But I have said enough, maybe too much. I grant that some of my particular facts might not be entirely accurate. I am willing to retract anything that is shown to be false. I am very sorry that our relationship had to come to this. For a long time now I have been willing in true Christian love to overlook some of these things, for God knows I have my struggles and sins. But this recent abuse of Clark is just too much. Enough is enough. You cannot crucify the reputation of Clark and then sweep it under the rug of Titus 3:10. The irony in all this is that you said publicly that Clark is not ready to be a pastor or the leader of a church. You said that he is too immature and you told me that he has some issues to work on. But if we look this letter over again, if we look at the way this church is run, how you slander and mock fellow believers from the pulpit, how biblical principles of confrontation and restoration are ignored, and how you have to distort the truth (if not outright lie) and resort to dirty tactics to win, then sir, you are not fit to be an elder of any church either. Maybe you should check the plank in your own eye, before you publicly point out the speck in my brother’s eye. Maybe your calling in these latter days is the lectern and not the pulpit (as you tried to say it was for me), for then you could really focus on the things (the many projects) that seem most important to you, since you have admitted many times that you had no desire or intention to start a church when you came out here to California.
I want you to know that I am not going to spread gossip around about this. I am not going to call anyone in the church about any of this. My greatest concern and priority through all of this has been the safety and unity of this church. I love the people of F.C.C. and do not want to see them hurt, many of them again from previous churches. Please do not publicly or privately lump me in with Clark and the other three families who have chosen to support him. I have made myself clear that I am not following them nor leaving because of anything they did, but only because of what you did to them and how you have handled this whole situation.
Also, please do not attack me (or my family) publicly and harm the reputation I have worked so hard to create and uphold. It is sad that I even have to say something like that, but I simply don’t trust you. I almost expect that somewhere, if not next Sunday you will talk trash about me. Please note: the only line of self-defense I will take if I hear of any such thing (and I will) will be to release this letter to the public. But I will not be intimidated or bullied by you. I am my own man. My success or position in ministry is not dependent on any human man, except the Lord Jesus Christ. I have taken my stand. I am willing to recant and repent on these things if you think I have missed the mark and can clearly show me so.
How tragic all this is. I have defended you from nearly every critic at every turn of the way, and there are many. I have done nothing but serve you and the people of this church for the last four years. I have never failed (to my knowledge) to do anything you have asked me to do. I have taught for you on Sunday mornings and Monday nights every time you asked—and I was privileged to do so. I have taught several Sunday seminary courses for the church. My wife and I have tithed faithfully. We have served these four years overseeing the children’s ministry. I have taught the children and sang songs with them. I have cleaned all the toilets and bathrooms of the church. I have mowed the lawns and created academic syllabuses for your school. I have led a men’s discipleship cell and preached to them on your behalf at the men’s retreat. I have run book tables for you and even helped clean your garage. I have gone door-to-door in the local neighborhood to tell people about the church. I have always spoken highly of you and promoted your ministry and materials. I even dedicated my Trichotomy book to you. I have been faithful. I do not deserve to be attacked in any way.
Am I angry? Yes. Am I disappointed? Yes. Am I sad? Yes. I have and will confess any anger to God, ask for forgiveness, and move on. I do not wish to hold any of this against you and my goal is to forgive you. I truly thank God for all the good that has come to me (and my family) from this time together and my plan is now to move on. I will still always take pride in saying that I had the privilege and opportunity to sit under one of the greats—Dr. Robert A Morey. That will be the story that I tell people.
Your former pupil and servant,
Joel Hughes
Theocentric7@yahoo.com
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82 comments:
Wow...I can't even say anything. I literally just cried and prayed for Dr. Bob's heart to be broken so that he may return to the love of God. I haven't felt this saddened for God knows how long, and I'm still teary-eyed as I write this. I can only imagine the heartbreak for those who left...all I can say right now Joel is I'm happy that God is using you elsewhere and, as you know, has put you through this crucible for a purpose. Stand strong in him look forward to better days in which you can minister to broken and needy people, edify the saints to live godly lives, and reach unbelievers for our Savior.
-Sam
Thank you for posting this - my prayers go out to all who've been abused by him. It was particularily sobering to read these things laid out in such a logical manner. I had so many of these concerns while there but like others I simply swept them under the rug and took another swig off kool aid. Until recently, I thought I was the only one. What a blessing that God is giving so many people discernment in this time. The more these scandals are brought out into the light the better it is for the people of God. No one needs to spend years being manipulated, lied to, and stolen from. These testimonies will prevent that from happening to others. Hopefully more and more will continue to surface.
Accordingly, over at Biblical Thought theres a new warning Morey wrapped in a parable so that all can apply it to themselves: expose Dr. Bob's sins into the light and Jesus will not say "well done" on the day of judgement. Instead we will be suffering "loss" which implies we will hear the words, "I never knew you" and aparently be spending eternity in hell. What a suprise.
Quoting Morey:
"One of Satan’s devices is to sidetrack us from studying and preaching the Word. Imagine the following hypothetical story:
There once was a young man who loved to evangelize all the time. He zealously preached Jesus and gave out tracts on the beaches and piers. His concern for the lost was wonderful. But he was sidetracked one day by Satan into giving up evangelizing and spent all his time trashing churches and pastors he disagreed with. He spent all his time and money in trying to hurt the saints instead of evangelizing the sinners. He had a car accident and died one day. He was sure that Jesus was going to be happy about all his attacks on the saints. But, he did not hear a “Well done” from Jesus. Instead, he suffered loss as all his slander, gossip, and his ministry of being a busybody by interfering with churches he was not a member of, were all burned up as “wood, hay, and stubble.”
I'm even more blessed by and impressed with your attitude of frank honesty balanced with humility and Godly character in this letter than I am with how you hit the points dead on the nail. This is sad, but must be exposed. I, for the most part, in the past have decided to let this issue go, and not to pursue it, but Joel, it really should not be swept under the rug. Thank you for posting this, and from what I can tell, it was a righteous thing to do so. You have my support.
May the all-knowing God, who is even the author of wisdom itself, bless us with insight as we move on from this. This is so difficult, but we know that all God's elect will be united in heaven if not on this side of glory.
Grace and Peace,
Chase
We take it you people saw what this Faith Defender, really a “Robert Morey Defender”
wrote on Robert Morey’s “Attack the Bretheren website?” aka www.biblicalthought.com .
In light of Joel posting his resignation letter, it’s about time to expose (Ephes. 5:11) some of the blind disciples at FCC. But isn’t this what Bobby wants? The poor fools over there don’t even know it. Pray for them and pray for those who left and pray for Robert Morey.
on biblicalthought.com Stephen Macasil on april 14 wrote:
Thank you for the wise insight.
“3. If they saw the joy and fellowship we had at last Sat.’s Men’s breakfast, they would
become angry and jealous that, while we were experiencing joy, they were being miserable.”
Response to Stephen:
So you’re using this as some kind of warped justification that you are righteous and that those (who had their eyes opened by God) that left once they saw the truth about your leader’s pathological lying are somehow not righteous when in fact they followed the leading of the Holy Spirit? How dare you. How dare you. How dare you.
Consider a group of mafia wise guys (about 40) meeting at a mountain retreat. They say to fellow members later, “ If the other mafia family saw the joy and fellowship we had at last Saturday’s breakfast, they would become angry and jealous that, while we were experiencing joy, they were being miserable.”
Duh, they’re still a bunch of crooks and you guys still don’t get it. The fact you guys had a good time eating sausage and eggs could mean you’re a band of blind disciples gulping down everything your leader shovels down your willing pipe. You guys haven’t figured it out yet have you. There are videos by 3 letter agencies on how to tell if someone is lying. Check it out. Further your exposed leader keeps ranting at how those who left are full of bitterness, anger. He has it all wrong as usual. People are sick to their guts that he’s still deceiving you all and you can’t see it. Don’t you know that when you say, “This is the only place I can go to get this kind of teaching” that you fall into his trap? Guys like him love when weak-minded saps think like that.
Don’t you know that when you assume that mind-set you’ve given way to blindness to take over. Why do you think you keep looking the other way when the Holy Spirit kicks you in the rear and raises red flags continually over your leader’s many deceptions/abuses? Don’t you know that he knows that’s why you are there and he continually mind programs you with that bull? Wake up! You guys (his blind crew) are better than this. Just ask God to reveal to you the truth of what’s really going on at FCC and He will. Do you not have faith to do this?
Remember what Justin Alfred told you, “Not to get caught up in criticizing those not on your same theological level. Don’t you know that the Holy Spirit does miracles through old ladies who don’t know a lick about theology.” How dare you people constantly criticize the brethren. Those who left have repented about this. Why have you not? How many of you each week still meet and talk about what you think the failings of Calvary Chapel are? Pray that if RM is deceiving you it will be immediately exposed. Amen and Amen.
Instead of www.biblicalthought.com maybe it be better titled www.biblicalpuke.com since they seem so lustily focused on slandering those who have left after God revealed to them the truth of the many lies/deceptions et. al. that take place at FCC.
This so true unfortunately as already posted. http://www.myspace.com/augustinian
To The Blind Disciples over @ biblicalparrot.com
To you the blind disciples, yes you know who you are.
To you who claim to be promoters of the truth and justice,
and of mercy. Yet fail miserably to see the truth in these matters.
You ignore the Proverb that tells us there are two sides to the
story, an often quoted verse of your self-aggrandizing leader.
You failed to find out the other side of the story and instead
you go around slandering, assassinating the character, and
gossip about the innocent. If you would simply due do
Diligence in investigating matters properly, and with integrity, laying aside the massive pride you have built up in your wicked hearts, your investigation would lead you to the footsteps of your leader who has told lies about the innocent. You would then find your leader is where the blame lies.
Instead you are partakers in those lies and you will be accountable to Almighty
God!
¨ Micah 6:8
¨ Proverbs 29:24
¨ The ninth of the Ten Commandments
¨ Proverbs 6:16
¨ It is forbidden in the Christian community - Col. 3:9
¨ It is an expression of evil - Hosea 12:1
¨ It conceals hatred - Proverbs 36:24
¨ Leads to pride and oppression - Jeremiah 5:27
¨ All habitual liars forfeit eternal salvation - Rev. 21:27
¨ John 8:44
¨ Lying is incompatible with the divine nature of God. - Numbers 23:19
¨ Truth stands the test of time; lies are soon exposed. - Proverbs 12:19
¨ Proverbs 26:18-19
is there any way to force the crew over at biblicalthought to read these transcripts by john macarthur? maybe by some hope they wake up. pray that God will open more eyes of FCCites to the corruption over there! I wonder if having read, if they'll still think their leader models true biblical love? it is apparent that many of the post on this site are done to warn in love, in truth, the FCCites that the wool is being pulled over their heads. They however "CHOOSE" to see these warnings as anger, bitterness of people who left. But they fail to see that it is the One True God, the Alpha and Omega who has opened their eyes. So sad they don't have eyes to see and ears to hear in this matter.
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1862
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1863
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1864
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1865
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1866
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1867
Amazing. It seems so clear in your letter. It truely is the Lord that will have to show these people the Truth. Lets not forget to pray for our brothers and sisters in Christ, who are being decieved as we once were . Thanks you for posting this and thank you for speaking the truth in love. Don't be intimidated and don't back down. You have the truth and evidence on your side.
to the first anonymous blogger,
Its obvious that you are way more connected with this whole thing than an anonymous passerby. Be a man or woman and use your real name. Its really easy, just type in the name on your birth certificate after clicking on the Name/URL section next time you post.
You said..."Further your exposed leader keeps ranting at how those who left are full of bitterness, anger. He has it all wrong as usual. People are sick to their guts that he’s still deceiving you all and you can’t see it."
Well I guess I'm decieved, I have listened to nearly 7 gigs of audio sermon's and lectures from Dr. Bob as well as numerous books and am actually sickened to hear you rant on about him and FCC in your post. I have found his teaching to be Biblical and beneficial. I am not blindly accepting what he says but testing it with the Word of God. I will continue listening to and being influenced by Dr. Bob because he a great Christian teacher.
Maybe if you give your real name I can look up your teaching and books to test if they are orthodox or even worth my time. It is quite evident to all that read your post that it is you who are bitter and angry. I wont even waste my time citing the evidence for this. Its there for everyone to read. However, you were obviously not confident enough to identify yourself and stand by your comments. It worked in your favor this time. maybe for your sake you should remain anonymous.
Anonymous quoted and commented about this excerpt from Steve Macasil:
Thank you for the wise insight.
“3. If they saw the joy and fellowship we had at last Sat.’s Men’s breakfast, they would
become angry and jealous that, while we were experiencing joy, they were being miserable.”
Anonymous,
Steve was quoting something Morey had written. Read a little more carefully next time. You should have been addressing your letter to Robert Morey. I find it humorous that you can criticize a guy you probably don't know (Stephen Macasil), on the basis of a comment that someone else made (Robert Morey), all the while misunderstanding the context of the whole thing and then conclude that we are the one's deceived. Maybe Joel can help me understand this tactic.
Danny P.,
I can not speak for the first anonymous writer, or anyone else,but I would like to point us back to the main issue here. We (Joel and I) don't really have any problems with Dr. Morey's teaching and doctrine. That is why we stayed at the church so long. We were, and still are very blessed by many of his books and CD's. Our main complaint is about a very serious moral/ sin issue. Breaking the 9th commandment, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
I agree with you, I too wish more people would just use there real names and speak up for what they believe to be right. Thank you for your comment.
to danny p.
danny, maybe it's you who need to read more carefully? obviously the post refers not to deceptions in morey's theological teaching, but to lies told about others and people's unwillingness to get the other side of the story, but rather repeat morey's slanders against w/o checking to see if they true or not and breaking off contact with saints because morey told you to, causing them much emotional damage. thus, yes don't you have the wool pulled over your eyes in the opinion of many? brilliance on morey's part is not a get out of jail free pass, thus why not check out to see if his allegations against everyone are true or not. you afraid? your apparent attempt to duck the issue won't work, sorry. isn't this what you have done? have you prayed for God to reveal to you what's really going on there and what has gone on at fcc in the past and in texas? have you? if not why not? don't be afraid. He will be faithful to you.
oh, and what does it matter if stephen m. was quoting morey? pleeeese!!! was not his intent apparently to use the sentence in his writing to put the men's group at fcc on a pedestal and to make those who've left (after God opened their eyes) look like sinners and crybabies and angry little boys? once again you've apparenlty tried to avoid the issue that they left for very good reason, not the reasons you've been told. didn't morey teach you about logical fallacies in argumentation? we thought he did but maybe you could go back and brush up. http://www.carm.org/apologetics/fallacies.htm keep up the fight danny p.
danny, you might want to consider that there might be good reasons between these people and God why some people on your blogs wish to do so anymously given the nature of the debate. consider they may know a lot more about pride than you. for example if the brain works by association, and James or Robin submits a blog, your leader likely (based on his past history; and the best predictor of the future is the past) will then say, “Oh he/she has been already discredited. You know he/she has a history of mental illness, there on medication et. al.” Thus they know your leader’s ‘poisoning the well’ tactics, that you are to associate them with slander. and they may know that if they can disassociate their name from the debate, maybe, just maybe you’ll evaluate based on the content of what they’ve written rather than engaging in personal attacks associated with a name, which is what you did right? danny, did you know that some christians out there mail christian based packages anonymously to celbrity types as a way of sharing the gospel good news with them? Why anonymously? So that the celebrity doesn’t think the Christian “wants” something from them like all the other bloodsuckers out there. and do you know that God shows them the people get the packages and that God blesses them for sending the packages? so don’t frown just because something is done anonymously, there might be a reason behind it. when you get something in the mail to read from Tim, your pride might kick in and say how dare he send this to me, what’s his problem? but if you get it anonymously, you might feel like you discovered it yourself, shortcircuiting your pride danny. thus some celebrities have responded in faith to the anonymous materials they rec’d. forget about always shooting your bazooka from the ivory tower at ex-fcc people who left in order to defend your leader, damn the truth and evidence. that is proving to be futile. danny, you can do yourself a favor by just trusting God by asking Him to reveal to you what’s been going on and what’s going on. That’s what some people who left did. And almost immediately God was faithful to them, so why don’t you utilize this route and see what God will do. may God bless you.
Nicki and Joel,
I understand that you have both been burned at FCC. Your personal experiences with Dr. Bob and others are just that, your experience. I’m not going to discredit your testimonies about the issue because I wasn’t there to witness any of it. I am also not going to get all worked up with what you are saying and jump on the anti-Dr. Bob band wagon. I am not drinking poisoned coolade and am not high on shrooms. If anything Dr. Bob has taught me to have a critical eye so that I will not be conned into simply gulping down whatever comes my way. You see, the thing is, I wasn’t in your shoes and therefore I am not involved with the things that you are so vigorously trying to expose to the world. It’s really none of my business because I wasn’t involved and cannot personally verify what you are saying.
You think that people who read your blog should trust in what you are saying and cut ties with Dr. Bob. The people who read your blog and go and make judgments about Dr. Bob based on an unverified private situation made public are the one’s drinking the poisoned coolade. This is simply gossip. I interpret what you have written the same way I would interpret a guy who started a blog claiming that Dr. Robert A. Morey is an alien from another planet and is out to get everyone on the basis of his personal experience with FCC and Dr. Bob. Would you expect me to simply jump on the “Dr. Bob is an alien” bandwagon and cut ties with him as a teacher? That would be absurd. It would be equally absurd if anyone reads the gossip and slander of this exceptional teacher, gulps it all down, harvests bitterness towards Dr. Bob and eventually cuts ties with his ministry.
The truth is that Dr. Bob is not perfect and never claimed to be. You speak of his pride and arrogance, all the while Dr. Bob is proclaiming his inadequacy and his need for Christ to do anything. One of the things I admire about Dr. Bob is that he never makes you feel like he is the perfect guy up on stage preaching about how do be a better husband like he is, or how to be a better Christian like he is, or how to witness and evangelize better like he does. He doesn’t put on the fake pastor mask and preach the perfection of himself all the while making every one of his listeners feel obsolete because they are themselves struggling against their sin and striving on in their process of sanctification. Dr. Bob lives what he believes and can believe what he lives. He has a Biblical view of man and continues to preach that to a humanistic world. I am not surprised that people have gotten their feeling hurt by Dr. Bob because he said it would happen. He said that he would let you down and violate your rights. He told you up front that he was a sinner just like you and me. So it seems that you and others have gotten ahead of yourselves, wishing that Dr. Bob was different and did things the way that you would do them or the way that would make you feel better. The truth is that Dr. Bob has a unique ministry and is a unique man. I have been able to accept that, why cant you? I am not interested in changing the way Dr. Bob teaches, communicates, interacts and lives his life. I respect him for who God has made him to be. He is an apologist who defends the faith and that is his mission. He has found and is in the process of finishing God will for his life. You should do the same.
With that being said, there are unbiblical motives and even sinful actions on your part. Is it right to dedicate all of your time (and I’m not just talking about you) sharing personal and private dealings that you had directly with Dr. Morey with the intent to expose him and discredit him as a Christian leader? Do you expect me to just jump on board with everyone who is making it their ministry to expose a respected teacher and theologian who has done more for me as a Christian thinker than you or anyone else? Do you expect me to boycott his ministry and stop buying his lectures and stop reading his books because you got burned while in personal ministry with Dr. Bob?
What do you expect to do with your campaign against FCC and Dr. Bob? So far you have released personal information that is between you and Dr. Bob so the whole world can read it. You have threatened to release DVD’s against the man so that his character is discredited. I find it quite suspicious when people spend so much time and energy trying to tell the world how they got their feelings hurt by a Christian leader, and on the basis of their experience, no one should support this leader anymore. I take everything that you and others have written with a grain of salt. It is all in the back of my mind and that’s just where it will stay. The sad thing is that people will take what you are saying and cut Dr. Bob’s influence completely out of their lives. You have made it your goal it seems to play god and try to change Dr. Bob and bring him to his knees. This is scary stuff. You are not God. I would stop before you get so consumed with all of this that you stop praying, evangelizing, and studying scripture. You left FCC for your own reasons and are supposedly dedicated to Christian ministry, so go out there and preach the gospel and bring glory to God. Leave Dr. Bob alone for he has far too much to do (God willing) on this side of glory to be getting distracted by this whole conspiracy. Stop being like the Muslims who hate Dr. Bob and want to destroy him. They threaten his life with bombs and guns, you are now threatening his ministry and character with DVD’s, blogs, campaigns, and emails.
Sincerely, Danny Pelichowski
Danny Pelichowski,
I’m not going to pretend to defend Joel and Nikki, that’s up to them and the Holy Spirit whether they should respond to your uninformed comments.
I’m simply going to respond to a couple your absurd quotes:
Quote #1:
“He said that he would let you down and violate your rights. He told you up front that he was a sinner just like you and me.”
Does that mean that he is free to go on sinning based on his promise that he would? If Robert Morey commits car theft one Sunday morning, will you be there to defend him? If Robert Morey were to beat his wife constantly, will you still use this same argument? I guess what I’m asking is, where’s the line? Is there a line? Is Robert A. Morey above reproach simply because he repeats the phrase, “I told you so”!
Frankly my friend, I find your lack of compassion and respect for Joel, Nikki, myself and all the others who have been hurt by this man rather disheartening and unbiblical (1 Peter 3:8-9). Joel on many occasions had asked Robert Morey not to defame him and his family in any way. Did Robert Morey let things alone? This expose’ is as a result of Morey’s willful pride and unwillingness to repent.
Many of us are only now finding the courage to stand-up against this depraved man’s tactics. We are tired of hearing countless stories of our beloved brothers and sisters getting slaughtered by this one sinful and unrepentant man .
Quote #2:
“With that being said, there are unbiblical motives and even sinful actions on your part. Is it right to dedicate all of your time (and I’m not just talking about you) sharing personal and private dealings that you had directly with Dr. Morey with the intent to expose him and discredit him as a Christian leader? “
First off sir, where’s your (as your leader would say) biblical warrant for claiming Joel has unbiblical motives and even sinful actions? Can you see into his heart? And by that same token, are you using that same argument toward Morey for publicly slandering Joel and other’s character on biblicalthought.com (BT), not to mention over God’s pulpit?
You know who else received flack for wasting their time telling the truth and standing-up against the religious deceivers of their time, how about the apostle Paul, Peter and the others, how about the Martin Luther? Guess he wasted his time refuting that old Roman Church. Calvin wasted his time too I guess standing up against and exposing his rivals.
Quote #3:
“Stop being like the Muslims who hate Dr. Bob and want to destroy him. They threaten his life with bombs and guns…”
I would love to see proof from you or Morey that shows the Muslims are out to physically maim and harm Morey with their Guns and Bombs… sounds just like another case of sensationalism!!!
I will be praying for you Mr. Danny Pelichowski. And thank you for placing your full name here. I will be able to lift you up by name directly to our sovereign father in heaven and ask for special protection for you and your family.
This is not a game Mr. Pelichowski; we hope God will lead you out of there before the tables are turned upon you. It has come to my attention that by you even being on this blog, reading these comments and so forth, you have put yourself in a compromising position. For Morey has written on BT and in the FCC bulletin that it is against scripture (according to him) for you to even engage us. You can brush us off now, but just remember brother, if you do become a victim of Robert A. Morey, we will be here to support you too. And you won’t even get an “I told you so” from us either! I Promise! :)
If the Lord wills, I too hope to write my experiences as an ex-FCC member soon. Please keep me in your prayers everyone…
Soli Deo Gloria
Joey Enriquez
Oh! By the way, Thank you Joel for posting this Resignation letter. It was masterfully written. You stuck to your points and it made perfect and logical sense. God has truly found favor with you regarding the discernment he granted you early on...
May God Bless you and Nikki for the difficult stand you are taking!
Lourdes and I have got your back :) We love you guys and you are in our prayers.
~joey
Joey,
You have completely missed the point of my letter to the Hughes family. I’m glad you have taken it upon yourself to reply to the letter I wrote to them. If they reply to my letter I hope they will understand my main thesis of the letter and respond accordingly.
My Thesis: Based on your personal experience with Dr. Bob I am not going to get all caught up in the gossip about what is being written about him! I’m not going to take your word for it and harvest bitterness towards a man who has proven to me to have an exceptional ministry.
In light of your misunderstanding of my letter I will now respond to what you have written.
Yes Dr. Morey is a sinner and no he is not above being called out for his sin. He does not have a license for immorality. Did I ever say that he could get away with beating his wife or stealing cars? Read what I wrote again and once you have understood the thesis of my letter you will realize that anyone who gossips about Dr. Bob (or anyone else for that matter) in e-mails, blogs, and myspace pages will not get the benefit of the doubt with me. Do I have to share the analogy again? Here goes, “I interpret what you have written the same way I would interpret a guy who started a blog claiming that Dr. Robert A. Morey is an alien from another planet and is out to get everyone on the basis of his personal experience with FCC and Dr. Bob. Would you expect me to simply jump on the “Dr. Bob is an alien” bandwagon and cut ties with him as a teacher? That would be absurd. It would be equally absurd if anyone reads the gossip and slander of this exceptional teacher, gulps it all down, harvests bitterness towards Dr. Bob and eventually cuts ties with his ministry.” You see, you have missed the point badly Joey and if you press on in your hate ministry towards Dr. Bob and FCC you are continuing in open rebellion against God and are wasting your time sinning. Get on with you life and blog about something worthwhile so people can benefit from you if you are a Christian who wants to do ministry for the glory of God.
Joey said…
“Frankly my friend, I find your lack of compassion and respect for Joel, Nikki, myself and all the others who have been hurt by this man rather disheartening and unbiblical (1 Peter 3:8-9).”
1Peter 3:8-9 states “Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.”
Joey, I cannot be of the same mind and have brotherly love with people who I see acting in unbiblical and slanderous ways. I thank you for pointing out this passage because you have saved me some time and work. I have already made clear that I cannot read the gossip about Dr. Morey and believe everything that is written and cut ties with his ministry. However, if he did do you and others evil this passage clearly tells you what you should be doing. “Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.” It’s a loose, loose for everyone who is making it their personal ministry to bring down Dr. Morey for hurting their feelings. If he did evil to you as you claim then be obedient to 1Peter 3:8-9 and stop trying to repay evil for evil which is what you are doing in making it your mission to assassinate his character and ministry. I do not see any blessing coming from God to any who are involved in the slander of Christians. You have slandered Dr. Bob, Steve, Mario, Drew and everyone else at Biblical Thought. It makes your whole testimony look really bad when you are mocking people you probably don’t even know. If you look at the vast spectrum of articles that have been published at Biblical Thought and compare them to what is being written on your MySpace and Joel’s blog I think it will be clear to everyone whose internet ministry is biblically beneficial and whose will be burned up as “wood, hay, and stubble.” To sum it all up, your anti-Dr. Bob ministry is trash and should be thrown out. Literally, if you want to be a godly man delete it and move on with your life. Don’t waste your life Joey because that is what you are doing. I offer the same exhortation to you that I did for Nicki and Joel, “You have made it your goal it seems to play god and try to change Dr. Bob and bring him to his knees. This is scary stuff. You are not God. I would stop before you get so consumed with all of this that you stop praying, evangelizing, and studying scripture. You left FCC for your own reasons and are supposedly dedicated to Christian ministry, so go out there and preach the gospel and bring glory to God. Leave Dr. Bob alone for he has far too much to do (God willing) on this side of glory to be getting distracted by this whole conspiracy.”
In conclusion I would like to let you know that I am not a member at Faith Community Church. I am in Louisville Kentucky for seminary with my wife and unfortunately I did not get the bulletin to steer clear of this nonsense. So your rebuke is irrelevant. As for the concluding comments of my letter to Nicki and Joel it was not my intention to document specific Muslim death threats and weapons used towards Dr. Bob which I hope was clear in what I wrote. The back cover of Dr. Morey’s book Winning The War Against Radical Islam states, “His (Dr. Bob’s) counter terrorism efforts have resulted in several attempts being made on his life.” In his lecture Tough Love Morey tells of Muslims chanting death, death, death, in Arabic in the middle of his lectures on Islam and he even tells of Muslims throwing acid at his car. Your inability to respond to the main point of my letter makes it clear that you were either really tired when you wrote your response to me or you have no real response to what I communicated in the letter to Nicki and Joel.
Sincerely, Danny Pelichowski
Don’t see the big deal with anynomous posting. People have their reason with them n God so respect it. There probably things going on you don’t know so avoid getting on your high horse of pride against it. Someone commented on Morey’s books and CDs offering good teaching on certain topics. Yes, maybe. But as a pastor, I would not want my people getting his books n CDs. Why? Because next they’ll go to his weekly study and then next his church service and he’ll work his subtle magic on them and before long they’ll be acting like him, using power of their tongue negatively, bearing his fruit of being a habitual, critical person of everyone and stirring up angst between the saints – no longer being active in productive ministry like sharing the gospel.
Danny,
If I’m not mistaken I think I had a fairly long conversation with you one night outside of FCC after a Monday night lecture. Our conversation was about why you did not agree with presuppositional apologetics and I was recommending some resources to you to help you understand my position. If I’m not mistaken, you also had a number of criticisms about Bob’s negative/hateful attitude, self-obsession, and ridicule of other Christians (all things which I now happen to agree with your former self on). Sadly, I was defending him to death that night and ironically it seems that the tables have now turned. Know that what I’m about to say is not an attack on you personally. My intention is not to spread “gossip” or talk badly of people who’ve “hurt my feelings” (as you so wrongly accused the Hughes family of doing). The issues are:
(1) Bob has repeatedly done a number of things that are not only sinful but are so bad that we feel a need to warn others for fear of their safety (financial, emotional, spiritual, societal, familial, etc.).
(2) These sins are not isolated events. He has a specific pattern of committing the same sins in all of the same situations - all of which are directly damaging upon all those around him. In fact, they are always done in a predatory fashion directly to those victims in ministry with him.
(3) He has never repented of these sins no matter how many people have confronted him. Instead, his tactic is to turn the issue around on them. Many times Bob has secretly gone in front of his congregation and said that those who confronted him about say stealing money were themselves stealing money! Or, lets say that they confronted him about his pathological lying - his response would be to get in front of the church and invent lies about them lying!
(4) The reason he has been able to get away with doing this for so long is that hardly anyone has ever had the courage to speak out after coming out from under his abuse. He uses cult-like tactics of threats (damning one’s soul to hell if they dare speak) or rewards (offering people positions in the church, etc.) to intimidate the person not to speak out about what is actually going on. This is his strongest tactic because it allows evil to go unpunished. Bob has no plurality of elders (and even if he did anyone who serves him ends up being so scared of him that they never would correct him anyway) holding him accountable. He is a lone dictator which makes him even more dangerous. We have no one with a position over him for which we can take our information to.
(5) He himself has made this information public by slandering great men of God who served him humbly for many years. These men left his church for the fact that they could not serve under or be abused by such an amoral and unrepentant man. He wrote the most despicable lies about these men and now that they’ve responded you’re talking about how he should be left alone. He can’t both speak out on his blog and expect everyone else to be silent (though, we would have the moral duty to speak even if he had remained silent).
(6) People have reported him doing these same things since the early 90s (though it may have been going on earlier and I just don’t know about it). Take for example the apologetics ministry out in Texas where Morey effectively stole $30,000 from (there is proof of this - I have examined the documents myself and the 6 hour documentary covering it will soon be online). He not only did this but made up the most ridiculous lies and slanderous stories about them in his old newsletters - all to escape the evidence they had mounting against him.
(7) We have here a so-called “pastor” who has repeatedly, for almost twenty years, had people after people reporting his unrepentant lies, slander, monetary theft, abuse of power, cult-like manipulation, etc. This is someone who feeds of the weaknesses of trusting people much like a pedophile does with innocent children. What should we do if we’re ever in a situation where a dictatorial “pastor” sexually abuses one of our children? Besides going to the police, we would need to immediately leave that church and warn others before it happens to them. It would certainly not be virtuous to remain silent about such a matter, would it? Would you not tell the other parents at that church simply because the pastor adopts the same confession as you? I hope not.
I will now respond directly to some of the things you’ve said:
Danny: “I understand that you have both been burned at FCC.”
Josh: So I take it that you are admitting here that Bob did to those things Joel outlined in his letter. I assume this means that you don’t think Joel is lying as Bob likes to say he is.
Danny: “Your personal experiences with Dr. Bob and others are just that, your experience. I’m not going to discredit your testimonies about the issue because I wasn’t there to witness any of it. I am also not going to get all worked up with what you are saying and jump on the anti-Dr. Bob band wagon. I am not drinking poisoned coolade and am not high on shrooms. If anything Dr. Bob has taught me to have a critical eye so that I will not be conned into simply gulping down whatever comes my way.”
Josh: If this is indeed your position then why aren’t you over at “biblical” thought confronting Morey as well? Have you not seen what he is saying about Joel and the rest of his former servants? Why, if you have such a skeptical attitude, do you not form the same charges you laid out here over there?
Danny: “You see, the thing is, I wasn’t in your shoes and therefore I am not involved with the things that you are so vigorously trying to expose to the world. It’s really none of my business because I wasn’t involved and cannot personally verify what you are saying.”
Josh: Here you’ve just basically admitted that we have no reason to listen to your moral judgments against us. By (i) not taking the same standard to evaluate Bob’s claims and (ii) admitting you’re not in a position to evaluate the truth or falsity of the situation you have made your opinions of no merit at all.
Danny: “You think that people who read your blog should trust in what you are saying and cut ties with Dr. Bob.”
Josh: You are personalizing this too much. Joel put his testimony out there (which is a form of evidence - eyewitness testimony) so that people could come to their own conclusions. He did not do so because he wanted YOU to stop listening to his lectures/reading his books. Joel even alluded in one of his earlier posts that he expected those who’ve experienced this sort of abuse to be comforted and those who’re still obsessed with the man to be angry. But like you said above, “It’s really none of [your] business” anyway.
Danny: “The people who read your blog and go and make judgments about Dr. Bob based on an unverified private situation made public are the one’s drinking the poisoned coolade. This is simply gossip.”
Josh: I’ve already discussed above why this does not fall into the category of gossip. You need to remember: Bob is a public figure who sins against others publicly. Bob has no problem talking about all sorts of other pastor’s sins on the internet and in public but when anyone speaks negatively about him in any way it is automatically gossip.
Danny: “I interpret what you have written the same way I would interpret a guy who started a blog claiming that Dr. Robert A. Morey is an alien from another planet and is out to get everyone on the basis of his personal experience with FCC and Dr. Bob. Would you expect me to simply jump on the “Dr. Bob is an alien” bandwagon and cut ties with him as a teacher? That would be absurd. It would be equally absurd if anyone reads the gossip and slander of this exceptional teacher, gulps it all down, harvests bitterness towards Dr. Bob and eventually cuts ties with his ministry.”
Josh: This is an absurd and totally false analogy. I don’t even know where to begin. Have you ever watched a publicly televised trial or do you happen to know how trials work? It seems that you don’t. What is the purpose of bringing witnesses to the witness stand? Are all of their testimonies as worthless as the ones you’ve spoken of above? What if, in a trial, dozens and dozens of people testified to the same incidents occurring completely independent of one another? I have a hard time believing you’re even serious here. Do you know how many people have testified to all of the same things that Joel did in his letter? Over fifty people recently left FCC. Was it because they all thought Bob was an alien or something? Obviously not.
Danny: “The truth is that Dr. Bob is not perfect and never claimed to be. You speak of his pride and arrogance, all the while Dr. Bob is proclaiming his inadequacy and his need for Christ to do anything. One of the things I admire about Dr. Bob is that he never makes you feel like he is the perfect guy up on stage preaching about how do be a better husband like he is, or how to be a better Christian like he is, or how to witness and evangelize better like he does. He doesn’t put on the fake pastor mask and preach the perfection of himself all the while making every one of his listeners feel obsolete because they are themselves struggling against their sin and striving on in their process of sanctification.”
Josh: What you’ve failed to understand in so much of your complaint is that we’re complaining about Bob not living what he is preaching from the pulpit. This was already made clear multiple times on this blog and you still don’t understand. E.g. “Dr. Bob lives what he believes and can believe what he lives.” You add this sentence after the former paragraph as if it follows but in fact it doesn’t. How do you know he does? We happen to have reason to believe he doesn’t.
Danny: “He said that he would let you down and violate your rights.”
Josh: I am aware that he says this, laughing as though this is a normal expectation of a pastor. In reality, I think this is a sick promise to make to a new member of a church. A pastor SHOULDN’T expect to be violating the rights of his people - that’s a mark of a cult. Though, as usual, he never defines what he means by rights. Is he referring to the rights outlined in the Bill of Rights/Constitution? Who knows.
Danny: “He told you up front that he was a sinner just like you and me. So it seems that you and others have gotten ahead of yourselves, wishing that Dr. Bob was different and did things the way that you would do them or the way that would make you feel better.”
Josh: No one ever claimed this. Where did you find the grounding for this assertion?
Danny: “The truth is that Dr. Bob has a unique ministry and is a unique man. I have been able to accept that, why cant you? I am not interested in changing the way Dr. Bob teaches, communicates, interacts and lives his life. I respect him for who God has made him to be.”
Josh: You have given a total license for immorality with these statements. Not to mention that your opinion and your moral recommendations are admittedly baseless given your admission at the beginning (ii).
Danny: “What do you expect to do with your campaign against FCC and Dr. Bob? So far you have released personal information that is between you and Dr. Bob so the whole world can read it. You have threatened to release DVD’s against the man so that his character is discredited. I find it quite suspicious when people spend so much time and energy trying to tell the world how they got their feelings hurt by a Christian leader, and on the basis of their experience, no one should support this leader anymore. I take everything that you and others have written with a grain of salt. It is all in the back of my mind and that’s just where it will stay…I would stop before you get so consumed with all of this that you stop praying, evangelizing, and studying scripture. You left FCC for your own reasons and are supposedly dedicated to Christian ministry, so go out there and preach the gospel and bring glory to God. Leave Dr. Bob alone for he has far too much to do (God willing) on this side of glory to be getting distracted by this whole conspiracy.”
Josh: Well, thank you for sharing your conclusion about the situation. Now that you’ve already come to a conclusion, for what reason are you still here? Shouldn’t you be outside at this very moment evangelizing? Why aren’t you out dedicating yourself to Christian ministry? Studying scripture? You can’t have it both ways my friend.
Danny: “Stop being like the Muslims who hate Dr. Bob and want to destroy him. They threaten his life with bombs and guns, you are now threatening his ministry and character with DVD’s, blogs, campaigns, and emails.”
Josh: By your own standard you should equate Bob’s story of supposedly having so many “out to destroy him” as being equivalent to him saying aliens were out to do so. He is just “one man” is he not? How can you trust what he says and immediately throw away Joel’s testimony as being a fairy tale because its just the sayings of one man? You can’t have it both ways. I personally don’t believe his assertions about these countless groups of Muslims always being out to get him and even trying to kill him. If it were true, however, the fact that you would attempt to equate us with them is very sad. You really do not understand this situation at all.
Danny: “ Based on your personal experience with Dr. Bob I am not going to get all caught up in the gossip about what is being written about him! I’m not going to take your word for it and harvest bitterness towards a man who has proven to me to have an exceptional ministry.”
Josh: I’ve got news for you Danny, if this actually were gossip you’d already be caught up in it. If you truly believe that this is gossip you should stop posting in here immediately. You would be entertaining it otherwise.
Danny: “Yes Dr. Morey is a sinner and no he is not above being called out for his sin. He does not have a license for immorality. Did I ever say that he could get away with beating his wife or stealing cars?”
Josh: These are some strange and arbitrary examples. Are these the only sins worthy of confronting Bob on? Are you admitting here that our actions would be justified if these two sins were involved? Are you saying that bearing false witness, manipulating weak individuals, falsifying testimonies, lying to the congregation, fostering a cult-like system of fear, stealing large sums of money from church funds and people in other states, ruining countless reputations, splitting up friends and families, condemning all to hell who dare question him, etc. are all unworthy of being “called out” on?
Danny: “Read what I wrote again and once you have understood the thesis of my letter you will realize that anyone who gossips about Dr. Bob (or anyone else for that matter) in e-mails, blogs, and myspace pages will not get the benefit of the doubt with me. Do I have to share the analogy again? You see, you have missed the point badly Joey and if you press on in your hate ministry towards Dr. Bob and FCC you are continuing in open rebellion against God and are wasting your time sinning. Get on with you life and blog about something worthwhile so people can benefit from you if you are a Christian who wants to do ministry for the glory of God…Joey, I cannot be of the same mind and have brotherly love with people who I see acting in unbiblical and slanderous ways.”
Josh: Yet again you are violating what you said at the outset of your first post. You said that you didn’t have enough information to judge either way whose testimony was factual. Yet, you call this “hate ministry” and “rebellion against God” and “wasting…time sinning”. It looks like you HAVE actually made up you mind in contradiction of this statement: “You see, the thing is, I wasn’t in your shoes and therefore I am not involved with the things that you are so vigorously trying to expose to the world. It’s really none of my business because I wasn’t involved and cannot personally verify what you are saying.” Like I said earlier, if you can’t judge who is right or wrong - don’t. If it is none of your business - stop giving moral admonitions. But if you insist on doing such things, why don’t you do it to Bob if you truly can’t know who is right? He is speaking about this on his blog as well. Like I said before, you can’t have it both ways Danny.
Danny: “However, if he did do you and others evil this passage clearly tells you what you should be doing. “Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.” It’s a loose, loose for everyone who is making it their personal ministry to bring down Dr. Morey for hurting their feelings. If he did evil to you as you claim then be obedient to 1Peter 3:8-9 and stop trying to repay evil for evil which is what you are doing in making it your mission to assassinate his character and ministry.”
Josh: You need to prove that this would qualify as repaying evil for evil. In what possible way could this be evil? Staying silent is evil when doing so allows for many to be hurt. That is a selfish practice. You need to wonder where you came up with such ideas in the first place. Like I said, Bob concocts such ideas every time he is put under the microscope. According to Bob: if negative things are said about him it is gossip, if they are said about another pastor it is a defense of the faith.
Danny: “I do not see any blessing coming from God to any who are involved in the slander of Christians. You have slandered Dr. Bob, Steve, Mario, Drew and everyone else at Biblical Thought. It makes your whole testimony look really bad when you are mocking people you probably don’t even know.”
Josh: (a) This would only be slander if it were “words falsely spoken that damage the reputation of another” which again assumes that you KNOW who is right in this matter and you yourself said you don’t. (b) Why are you now assuming that he doesn’t even know Bob and the rest of the people at BT? Can’t you respond to a person based on what they’ve written like what you’ve done here? You don’t really know any of us on here, right? Do you know Joel and Joey personally?
Danny: “If you look at the vast spectrum of articles that have been published at Biblical Thought and compare them to what is being written on your MySpace and Joel’s blog I think it will be clear to everyone whose internet ministry is biblically beneficial and whose will be burned up as “wood, hay, and stubble.” To sum it all up, your anti-Dr. Bob ministry is trash and should be thrown out. Literally, if you want to be a godly man delete it and move on with your life. Don’t waste your life Joey because that is what you are doing.”
Josh: But you’re writing on here too! If this blog is so inherently wasteful and sinful why are you using so much of your valuable time on here yourself?! Again, you are now making a moral claim that the things going on here will be burnt up and that God is displeased with us. You continue to contradict the statement I keep alluding to. If you really believe that this is such a waste of time I suggest you move on and stop posting here. Otherwise, stop giving that “exhortation” and continue to write. One way or the other you’ve got to give up something.
Danny: “The back cover of Dr. Morey’s book Winning The War Against Radical Islam states, “His (Dr. Bob’s) counter terrorism efforts have resulted in several attempts being made on his life.” In his lecture Tough Love Morey tells of Muslims chanting death, death, death, in Arabic in the middle of his lectures on Islam and he even tells of Muslims throwing acid at his car.”
Josh: And if you’re going to be consistent this would be as trustworthy as Bob saying that aliens were doing these things. If you really believe that the alien analogy is accurate - you must employ it here as well. Again, you can’t have it both ways.
Joey -
Thanks for the good words and points Joey. I do hope all is well with you. I do hope we can see each other soon. I trust we will. Also, write your story and email me a copy of it when you do.
Danny -
Thanks for your responses. I know that under other circumstances you and I would probably get along real well. I would like to respectfully address some of your assumptions and comments. I would like to suggest that you have made some big assumptions which lead to many incorrect conclusions on your part. Just so you know, I printed up what you said and have been thinking about it very carefully for about two days now.
First, we were not really burned at Faith Community Church. You said this twice in your writings. My wife and I left the church silently just as I said in my letter. As my letter says clearly, we were deeply disappointed at how we saw Dr. Morey burn many people over several years (not to mention the other problems) and I lost all respect for the man. My many complaints are a lot more than just spilt milk or hurt feelings—they are serious sins. If you read my letter and other blogs you will see that I gave Dr. Morey mercy at least three times even though he totally violated the small request I asked him to make, namely, leave me alone and do not attack my character and reputation. I put that initial request in my resignation letter because I didn’t trust him and had seen him do it to others before who tried to leave. What does that say about him? What do you think about him doing that? Further, do you think it was then wrong for me to stick to my guns after so much patience and doing what I said I would (i.e. make this letter public)? Did I not give him opportunities to keep all this concealed?
Thanks for not discrediting my (and many other people’s) experiences, because, yes, you were not there. And personal testimonies are a legitimate and powerful means of education and edification. But you have admitted that you were not “there to witness any of it,” so I would tread lightly when making strong critiques of situations of which you know not. Danny, if you were not there and admit you know nothing of it, how do you know my cool aide is “poisoned”? That Dr. Bob teaches people to think critically and submit to all of Scripture is the great baffling irony in all of this. He does not do what he preaches. I am not trying to “con” you into believing anything. Thus far you have already assumed two sinful things about me (a “poisoned” i.e. false story and that I am also trying to “con” people with it). You are right again about not being in my shoes and not knowing anything. It therefore seems reasonable for you to remain silent and not weigh in so heavily.
Second, I am afraid my Christian brother, you are wrong again. I do not expect that all who read what I wrote should blindly trust all of it. But for the most part what I wrote is not “based on an unverified private situation made public” as you assume. Most of what I wrote is public information based on observation over years of being there. Moreover, the other things that were private were for the most part made public by Morey himself. So it must be him doing the gossip and not me. Your alien analogy is, well, not so good, to put it kindly. Believing that Dr. Morey is an alien is absurd and not rational based on the Christian worldview; that Dr. Morey is an abusive leader who lies, who hurts innocent people, who thinks way too highly of himself, who has his priorities backwards as a pastor, etc., well, that is rational and very believable within that worldview—especially when confirmed over and over by a multitude of witnesses from over many years. Frankly, I don’t want you to jump on my bandwagon because I don’t really have one. I have a problem and some points to make. You say you take all this stuff with a grain of salt, but gee, it sure doesn’t sound like it.
Third, may I ask you a question? You seem to be assuming something over and over and I will now address it. Do you think that because someone is an “exceptional teacher” as you said, that they therefore could not sin or that having much knowledge excludes one from moral failure? Again, you said that you have not been there and do not know, so how can you rush to his defense in this area? Is THAT not blind allegiance? I have the feeling that if such things as I have written were about a pastor you do not like, maybe Rick Warren or Benny Hinn, I bet you would not protest, but would rather be like the other commenter’s on my site singing a different song. Again, you are now assuming a third sinful thing about my heart and intentions: slander. If someone can show me at any point that what I said is false I will be the first to make a public retraction. Can you show me how in my letter to him where I slandered him?
Fourth, you said, “The truth is that Dr. Bob is not perfect and never claimed to be. You speak of his pride and arrogance, all the while Dr. Bob is proclaiming his inadequacy and his need for Christ to do anything.” Can you show me in any of my writings where I “speak of his pride and arrogance”? I say he talks about himself a whole lot and how great he is, and who can disagree with that, especially if you have heard 7 gigs of him? I have heard years of him also and also have worked with him for nearly five years. I also have the many testimonies from people who also worked close to him for years, some more years than me. If you disagree that he speaks of himself in inflated terms then I am afraid, my seminary friend, that you might want to see what you are drinking there in your cup. I have a Starbucks here; check your heart in sincerity to see what you have. You said, “Dr. Bob lives what he believes and can believe what he lives.” I know he says this often, but if you have not served with him, worked with him, spent personal time with him outside of church, again Danny, how do you know this? How do you know he does not put on a “fake pastor mask” in other areas of ministry? How do you know? Again, seems like you should tread a bit lighter here in your rush to defend things that you know very little to nothing about. Also, we have not gotten ahead of ourselves and wished Dr. Bob were perfect, we just wish that he would have at least as much personal and ministerial integrity as unregenerate men have in the secular business world. That would be a nice start.
Danny you said, “The truth is that Dr. Bob has a unique ministry and is a unique man. I have been able to accept that, why cant you? I am not interested in changing the way Dr. Bob teaches, communicates, interacts and lives his life. I respect him for who God has made him to be. He is an apologist who defends the faith and that is his mission. He has found and is in the process of finishing God will for his life. You should do the same.”
My Reply: What is so unique about his ministry compared to all the many other apologetics ministries out there? I agree with you that he is a unique man, but unique man does not equal unique or mighty ministry, else once again, old Benny would have one also and maybe we should all leave him alone. Nor does unique man or even unique man with a unique ministry automatically make one above reproach and unquestionable in word and conduct. You say you respect him for who God has made him to be yet, from what I gather, you really don’t know him personally at the church level and have not worked much with him. It is because of that that I do not respect him. When I only knew of him through audio and books, then I respected him. Yes he is an apologist who defends the faith, but as he says in his apologetics book, the life of the apologist as a Christian is essential and comes before one is to open their mouth in defense. And how do you know that I have not and am not following God’s will for my life? Again, you assume things about me of which you do not know. Because I speak out against lies and abuse (i.e. defending the faith) does that mean I am out of God’s will?
Fifth, again, you assume you know my heart. You said: “With that being said, there are unbiblical motives and even sinful actions on your part.” How do you know that I have unbiblical motives? Because I want to speak out for the truth, to protect the church, and help vindicate those slandered and lied about? You said: “Is it right to dedicate all of your time (and I’m not just talking about you) sharing personal and private dealings that you had directly with Dr. Morey with the intent to expose him and discredit him as a Christian leader?” My answer: yes. Fact is, he has already discredited himself as a Christian leader—if I am right. I didn’t do it, he did. He taught me to speak out with the truth. No one is making it “their ministry to expose a respected teacher and theologian.” C’mon Danny, my “ministry”? No I do not expect you to boycott his ministry and stop buying his materials. That is not my main contention. Buy them. Profit from them. Use them. But do not try to defend aspects of his life that you do not know about.
Also I do not have a campaign against FCC. As my letter says several times, I love FCC and the people there. But If I have a campaign against Dr. Bob than his current batch of disciples equally have a campaign to defend him at all costs, for in fact, they have written more on their blogs than I have in mine. So they have a larger campaign than I do. The information I released is primarily all public knowledge. If an elder repeatedly lies in his personal dealings with his church members in order to harm them, ought not the people know about that? You said: “You have threatened to release DVD’s against the man so that his character is discredited.” As for the DVDs, they are already out there. But what you seem to be missing over and over, is that he is the one who has already discredited his character long ago. Danny, what if all this is true? Will you still defend him like this? He is the one who brought this upon himself and it is just others who speak out to expose these years and patterns of abuse, lies, and hypocrisy. You said: “I find it quite suspicious when people spend so much time and energy trying to tell the world how they got their feelings hurt by a Christian leader, and on the basis of their experience, no one should support this leader anymore.”
My reply: I did not get my feelings hurt. You read way too much into this. It’s not about getting my feelings hurt. I bring you back to the main issue once again: he has done much sin against people. I wonder how much time and energy you spend on speaking out against error, false doctrine, the cults, and sin in general. I guess you are allowed to do it and when done so, it is godly and of the Lord, but when someone says something that you don’t like, something that makes you “feel” upset, it then must be of the devil. As for me playing God…ok, whatever.
Finally, you said: “Leave Dr. Bob alone for he has far too much to do (God willing) on this side of glory to be getting distracted by this whole conspiracy.” My reply: are you friends with that guy who made the Britney Spears video? (“Leave Britney alone!!!”:)
Again, I point out how you are assuming things about me which you do not know about and which assumes an evil heart on my part by calling “this whole [thing a] conspiracy.” How do you know it is a conspiracy? Please answer me that. Oh boy, here you go again with these huge assumptions about me, you said: “Stop being like the Muslims who hate Dr. Bob and want to destroy him. They threaten his life with bombs and guns, you are now threatening his ministry and character with DVD’s, blogs, campaigns, and emails.” You assume that I “hate Dr. Bob”. How do you know that? Joey was right, when is he ever threatened by these things? He is the one who destroys his own character by repeatedly doing crazy things, not me or anyone else. It is his doing. I would just say Danny, that you have accused me of all sorts of evil sins. You don’t even know me nor (to my knowledge) do you know Dr. Bob personally, or at least very well. Multitudes of witnesses have spoken out against him and I am confident that many more will come forward in time. Think of your position in light of that. Who now is the one acting out of feelings and emotionalism? You have just written a long campaign yourself to defend things you know virtually nothing about. C’mon Danny, that is what the Mormons and JWs do. They defend a belief that has no evidence to back it up. You are smarter than that, I know you are. I would add another couple grains of salt up there and not be so quick to discredit and attribute evil to God’s people just because they don’t have as many credentials behind their names.
Respectfully,
Joel Hughes
PS I will respond to your posts tomorrow as time lets me.
The recent posts are providing even more insight into mr. morey's strategies and tactics. Josh's post (April 21, 2008 4:26 PM)and joel's post(April 21, 2008 5:51 PM) go a long ways to demonstrate the typical ill-thought writing put out from the folks serving under mr. morey at bbthought.com in addition to his other loyal, but apparently blind defenders. his influence in blinding and corrupting them is ever the more apparent in their writings. that's exactly why i would not want my people reading his books and using his CDs who live in his locality. if he's just a hireling as some have concluded over the years, pray God reveals this to those in need of knowing. but moreover, pray hard that the One True God would open their eyes to who mr. morey really is and what he's all about as others have asked on this blog.
"Multitudes of witnesses have spoken out against him..."
1. Where is the record of these witnesses? If offline, please post them here.
2. How many witnesses constitutes "multitudes?"
3. Which specific sins has this multitude spoken out against (Chapter & verse please)?
4. Which Bible passages justify your "Abuses" series?
Please answer these four questions as best as you can and with the most detail possible. Use first and last names with contact info if possible.
Thanks,
Joshua,
I attended FCC for a year and a half while I was at Biola and the only conversation I vaguely remember even resembling the one that you spoke of is very early on when I first started checking out the ministry on Monday nights. If you are the guy that lived in San Diego and really liked Gregg Bahnsen then I remember you. If not it must have been someone else you spoke with because your description doesn’t really fit the conversation I had that night. The conversation that I had as I remembered it was me asking a zealous brother questions about presupposition apologetics because it seemed like he had a lot of knowledge about the subject. If I can remember correctly this guy was planning on going to USC or some other school to study Philosophy. I remember him to be very sharp and I enjoyed the conversation however after that night I never saw or spoke with him again. Prior to that conversation I had listened to the Great Debate with Bahnen and Stein and was really interested in learning more about it. I may not have fully grasped presupposition apologetics and the philosophical language used but I was not at all arguing against it. This guy gave me a lecture by Bahnsen that he had in his car because I was interested and really liked the debate and wanted to learn more. I was also really enjoying the Monday night apologetics class at FCC and never said anything remotely similar to what was attributed to me about Dr. Morey. In fact, I have done nothing but defend Morey from groundless accusations because of the respect I have for him and the influence that he has had on my life. When I brought up your claim to my wife that I supposedly “had a number of criticisms about Bob’s negative/hateful attitude, self-obsession, and ridicule of other Christians” she was very surprised because she would know if I had any of those feelings towards Dr. Bob. She grew up in Calvary Chapel and it wasn’t the easiest transition for her from Calvary to FCC however I wanted us to be under good Biblical teaching and I found that at FCC and would still be their if I hadn’t moved to Louisville to go to seminary. Trust me, if I had those feelings about the ministry we would not have attended there for a year and a half because it was not the first church on her list at that time. However, the time we did spend there and the blessings that we had are evident to us both and we are both thankful to Dr. Bob for his ministry while we were in California. It just took my wife a little time to get used to a church (Calvinism, doctrine, apologetics ext.) that was so unlike what she grew up in. I find it very immature for you to begin your dialogue with me with this misrepresentation. If you are the guy I spoke with then I am very confused as to how you completely twisted our conversation that night to conveniently fit your little introduction. I mean it really goes well with the topic at hand however that doesn’t give you the right to blatantly misrepresent me. If you’re not the guy, well then this was all a waist of time responding to you and we can move on from here. Just for clarification I would like to submit a post that I left to Dr. Bob a while back on Biblical Thought explaining how I found out about Faith Defenders and my opinion about Dr. Bob’s ministry.
Dr Bob,
"I received free admission two summers ago to attend Biola’s apologetics conference. Each week after the speaker was finished lecturing the question about the “heathen” was asked by the same curios audience member. I sat anxiously listening to the rational answers given by these so called “Christian apologists”. Each answer was different because each man’s reason and experience was different. Not one of them turned to the Bible to give an exegetical answer. They seemed as if they were dancing around the issue. At the final lecture or “opinion’s meeting” I was listening to the people pleasing answer given by the apologist and I objected. Once again he skated around the issue as to not offend anyone. By God’s grace and His wise providence a man listening to our discussion told me about a church located in Irvine that he thought I would enjoy. I was blessed to sit under the teaching of a man who doesn’t care about pleasing the majority or becoming popular. Dr. Morey you care only about the popularity of God and your teaching is grounded in the revealed theology of the Bible. I pray that the curious man asking the question about the heathen would come under the influence of a God honoring teacher like yourself to point him to scripture and “wheel away the rubbish”. It is sad that Natural Theologians get all the money, support, and praise from ignorant Christians while the faithful get ridiculed, criticized, and misunderstood by the same ignorant Christians. You have influenced me more than you can ever know and I thank God for your steadfast Biblical apologetics for the Glory of God."
-Danny Pelichowski
-Its late, I am frustrated that I had to respond to this, I will get to your post later.
Joel,
Hey man, I am far too tired to get to what you wrote now however I would like to ask you a question in light of a previous comment you made in your past post about Morey. I think it might help me better understand your intentions when it comes to everything you are posting about Dr. Bob on your blog. It might just be more of the same but what the heck. I figured if you were that proud of it you would have posted it already like you posted your resignation letter.
Joel wrote:
“But let me address the comments made by John. You are correct, I am one of the emailers. But some context and clarification needs to be made. I emailed a friend of mine that still attends that church for his mailing address. In passing I asked him how he made sense of the fact that over and over the core leadership of that church leaves and is later slandered with all sorts of unbelievable accusations. He responded back to me by saying that the way he sees it, Dr. Bob has done nothing wrong, has only helped all these people, and that all these people (including myself) leave because they are prideful. Well, that really got me going so I wrote him back a three page response where I laid out just the basic facts, mostly public information. I have zero problem posting my emails on this blog for it will only further show the guilt and sin of Dr. Morey and also vindicate the good testimonies of many of these people burned by him. But I doubt people want to read all that stuff. But give me the word.”
I’m giving you the word; will you post these unedited emails?
"I’m giving you the word; will you post these unedited emails?"
I second the motion.
"I’m giving you the word; will you post these unedited emails?"
"I second the motion."
Third (hand waiving in air)
Joshua - excellent work. Even apart from what I said, you have utterly undone Danny's reasoning. His points have been thouroughly dealt with. I hope he can be honest with himself and just see this. The more he posts here and seeks to defend what he does not know, the more, as you pointed out, he contradicts himself. I do not believe I will address him any more on this issue.
Cathrine - I will post these emails, hopefully today if I have time.
Danny P,
What year are you in Seminary?
I was heavily influenced by Dr. Bob's ministry, and have grown doctrinally from what He has to say, but this quote from you bothers me:
"The truth is that Dr. Bob has a unique ministry and is a unique man. I have been able to accept that, why cant you? I am not interested in changing the way Dr. Bob teaches, communicates, interacts and lives his life. I respect him for who God has made him to be."
I think this quote is down right scarey...
Just because you have a unique ministry does not mean that you are not accountable, you should know better especially from one who is going to Seminary...
I'm not going to sling mud at Dr. Bob, but I think Danny, if you want Dr. Bob's name sake not to be slighted, you should encourage him to finally have Elders in his church whom he is accountable to and can guard him.
I am now in Seminary and I reflect back to how interesting it is that I learn biblical eccleisiology from Dr. MOrey's ministry, but when you look around the ministry he has, he has no fellow Elders...
Lest someone takes this comment of mine as a unproductive gossip, what I am trying to do is encourage something productive and have real biblical application:
Let us as brothers encourage Dr. Bob to be accountable to Elders, and have a biblical church that is Elder Rule..
AMEN?
Joel Hughes,
I need you to answer my four questions.
Thank you,
Ok Cathrine, I have been busy here at work all day. I have written responses to your questions and the email conversation I had with my friend over at FCC will all be in tomorrows post
Cathrine - are you the person named below?
Cathrine M. Castaldi, Rus, Miliband & Smith, A Professional Corporation
2600 Michelson Drive Seventh Floor, Irvine, California 92612 U.S.A.
Attorney at Law
I think Robert Morey is right about bombing Mecca.
George
Are you going to believe the previous comment the President?
Thank you Mr. President, your comments will be taken into consideration. I'm so glad to see that you read my blogs. Tell Condi and Colin I said hi also.
Cathrine,
I have all the details of what went down at Faith Community Church. No hear say or gossip but from the donkey's mouth himself - Bob Morey.
I have audios from the many meetings he (Bob Morey) slandered and lied about good people.
I even have "questionable" financial details from Faith Defenders. Salary of staff members, Bob Morey, Anne Morey, John Morey, Ruthanne Morey, etc. Purchased and sale of the church building, including the high interest and corrupt dealings.
Witness? The paperwork is the witness. The voice of Bob Morey is the witness.
Danny P,
are you at Southern Seminary?
if you are, ask any professor about Bobby Moron aka Bob Morey. almost all would say, "Bob, who?"
then you have to tell them about Bobby's books. what does that tell you about the man?
Bobby always says that this seminary and that seminary use his books as text books, pleeease.... ask him which seminary. the seminary that granted him the fake degree?
why are you so taken in by this Moron?
Joel,
I agree with that Danny’s objections have been fully dealt with between the both of us.
Danny,
I'm a little taken back at the conclusions you came to about me without even asking me first. You've again judged someone's motives (mine) after being warned of that more than once. Yes, I am the guy who had that conversation with you and gave you that CD. You are right, I must've gotten what you said about your girlfriend not being entirely happy with the church mixed up in my memory and *accidentally* applied it to you here. I thought I had remembered you speaking of not liking the way Bob spoke of and joked about the seeker church pastors for example but I must be thinking of someone else. Notice, I used the qualifier in my initial post: "IF IM NOT MISTAKEN". Please, don't rush to such assumptions about my heart and say that I intentionally misrepresented you. You should've given me the benefit of the doubt. What you said about our conversation did jog my memory and I now remember it more fully. My “little introduction” was only for the purpose of pointing out the *irony* of the situation - that’s all.
Joe m,
Are you going to either go public with this information and/or take legal action?
I hope there is a way for you to do both.
Joel,
I'm praying for you, don't let good old Dr. Bob intimidate you...or his cronies.
I just wish Dr. Morey's church would have Elders whom he can be accountable to!
I wonder if anyone from FCC hears my cry and see concern about the biblical thing at hand...that Dr. Bob be accountable to a board of fellow elders!
I wonder if Dr. Bob has disqualified himself from the ministry...
This is so, so, so, sad!
George Bush,
Didn't I tell you not to listen to that guy?
He's talk trash against your religion of Masonry and also misrepresented it, are you sure there won't be the back lash of a future wannabe Mahdi leading an Army against the world after it? This will not be winning the war against radical islam but promote a large scale islamic Invasion (and we're not just talking about a book)
The only way to win Radical ISlam is the Church evangelizing and the US pursuing a tough line REALIST foreign policy like the one I was trying to convince you of Mr. President
But don't take my word for it, I read Dr. MOrey's "When is it right to fight" recommended by the Rutherford's Institute
Joshua,
Joshua said… I'm a little taken back at the conclusions you came to about me without even asking me first.
Put yourself in my shoes Joshua. The only way you can remember me is from my profile picture because we only met once over two years ago. If you had a picture on your profile and I recognized you and misrepresented our conversation that we had two years ago, would you give me the benefit of the doubt? What if I had made the same false assertions about you? How would you have taken it if I claimed that you had many negative criticisms about Gregg Bahnsen when he is a Christian leader you highly respect? I’m glad you are “taken back” by my correction of what you wrote. You didn’t ask me first before you distracted this whole discussion by misrepresenting me. “You can’t have it both ways” Josh. As for the seeker pastor comment you must have been talking to someone else because I grew up in a seeker church and have the same criticisms that Dr. Bob has. I find it humorous when Dr. Bob speaks his mind and gives much needed rebuke to the seeker church movement. Once again Josh, you got me all wrong. I hope you understand the amount of time you have wasted with your frivolous comments. Let’s get back to the discussion.
-Danny
1 Timothy 5:19-21 (English Standard Version)
Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
Until you can learn to follow the directions found in Scripture I have no reason to have much respect for any of you. Keep trying to justify your “ministry, campaign, conspiracy, hate speech, unbiblical conduct that can be found in your resignation letters, DVD threats, personal testimonies, MySpace pages, Open letters, Blogs, emails, telephone conversations, private meetings.” Your justification falls on deaf ears when Scripture is opposing what you are doing. Where are the witnesses? A charge against an elder is a serious matter and should be dealt with biblically. Where is your Biblical warrant to be handling all of this the way that you are?
Matthew 18:15-19 (English Standard Version)
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.”
The people attacking Dr. Bob are not members of his church. Did Joel go to Dr. Bob personally (he openly admits that he left FCC quietly)? Did he then take witnesses? Are there specific sins that Dr. Bob is openly committing and unrepentant of? From my understanding this local church (FCC) has not confronted Bob with any moral sins that have been flying around the internet. Where is the Biblical warrant?
Seeing as all you people have so much time on your hands to complain, moan, and groan, I think you should read a book called "Shut Up, Stop Whining, and Get a Life: A Kick-Butt Approach to a Better Life" by Larry Winget. It might help you guys become more productive with your time. You can get it on Amazon.com here is the link!
http://www.amazon.com/Shut-Stop-Whining-Get-Life/dp/0471654655
Danny P,
WOuld you agree with my comment that Dr. Bob needs to have elders in which he is accountable to, and can also come out to bat for his integrity? I think this is the problem of Dr. Bob's ministry, he doesn't have Elders that he is accountable to...
By the way Danny, in case you didn't see the comment I left behind, here it is again:
Danny P,
What year are you in Seminary?
I was heavily influenced by Dr. Bob's ministry, and have grown doctrinally from what He has to say, but this quote from you bothers me:
"The truth is that Dr. Bob has a unique ministry and is a unique man. I have been able to accept that, why cant you? I am not interested in changing the way Dr. Bob teaches, communicates, interacts and lives his life. I respect him for who God has made him to be."
I think this quote is down right scarey...
Just because you have a unique ministry does not mean that you are not accountable, you should know better especially from one who is going to Seminary...
I'm not going to sling mud at Dr. Bob, but I think Danny, if you want Dr. Bob's name sake not to be slighted, you should encourage him to finally have Elders in his church whom he is accountable to and can guard him.
I am now in Seminary and I reflect back to how interesting it is that I learn biblical eccleisiology from Dr. MOrey's ministry, but when you look around the ministry he has, he has no fellow Elders...
Lest someone takes this comment of mine as a unproductive gossip, what I am trying to do is encourage something productive and have real biblical application:
Let us as brothers encourage Dr. Bob to be accountable to Elders, and have a biblical church that is Elder Rule..
AMEN?
Danny’s alien analogy: I interpret what you have written the same way I would interpret a guy who started a blog claiming that Dr. Robert A. Morey is an alien from another planet and is out to get everyone on the basis of his personal experience with FCC and Dr. Bob. Would you expect me to simply jump on the “Dr. Bob is an alien” bandwagon and cut ties with him as a teacher? That would be absurd. It would be equally absurd if anyone reads the gossip and slander of this exceptional teacher, gulps it all down, harvests bitterness towards Dr. Bob and eventually cuts ties with his ministry.
Josh: “This is an absurd and totally false analogy. I don’t even know where to begin… Over fifty people recently left FCC. Was it because they all thought Bob was an alien or something? Obviously not.”
Joel: “Your alien analogy is, well, not so good, to put it kindly. Believing that Dr. Morey is an alien is absurd and not rational based on the Christian worldview; that Dr. Morey is an abusive leader who lies, who hurts innocent people, who thinks way too highly of himself, who has his priorities backwards as a pastor, etc., well, that is rational and very believable within that worldview—especially when confirmed over and over by a multitude of witnesses from over many years.”
Of course you do not like my analogy. Due to the fact that neither of you have Biblical warrant for what you are posting online I don’t care if you are witnessing about “rational” situations that could happen in the real world. I do not believe in aliens and I also do not believe in disobeying direct commands in scripture! It’s an analogy and can easily be misinterpreted as we have seen both of you do, so let me speak to you in plain language. I interpret your writing that is completely void of Biblical warrant as sinful and disobedient to God. You should repent for your sinful actions.
Joshua,
Danny said… “I understand that you have both been burned at FCC.”
Josh replied… So I take it that you are admitting here that Bob did to those things Joel outlined in his letter. I assume this means that you don’t think Joel is lying as Bob likes to say he is.
My comments about Joel and his wife being burned by Dr. Bob have nothing to do with who I think is right or wrong in the situation. An overly sensitive person can be so caught up in himself being recognized by their mentor that they can start to harvest bitterness towards him as Joel so clearly portrays in his letter of resignation. Joel could have in fact been burned by Morey without Morey ever being in the wrong. You argued against me based on a false interpretation of what I wrote a number of times in your comments towards me. I am afraid you have misunderstood the first sentence in my letter to Joel and his wife. And once again I thank another who so boldly jumps in and responds to a letter I wrote to the Hughes family. I don’t mind your critiques; I just wish you wouldn’t misrepresent me like you have here and in the introduction of your letter to me. If this is the way things are going to continue I’m not sure I want to spend anymore time dialoging with you.
Josh said… “Many times Bob has secretly gone in front of his congregation and said that those who confronted him about say stealing money were themselves stealing money! Or, lets say that they confronted him about his pathological lying - his response would be to get in front of the church and invent lies about them lying!”
-Well I guess this isn’t gossip is it either Josh? I cannot in good conscience merely take you word for it man. That is what my alien analogy was all about. You continue to slander and act in unbiblical ways, repent!
Josh said… “People have reported him doing these same things since the early 90s (though it may have been going on earlier and I just don’t know about it). Take for example the apologetics ministry out in Texas where Morey effectively stole $30,000 from (there is proof of this - I have examined the documents myself and the 6 hour documentary covering it will soon be online). He not only did this but made up the most ridiculous lies and slanderous stories about them in his old newsletters all to escape the evidence they had mounting against him.”
-If this isn’t gossip then what is it? Let’s apply my alien analogy to this one as well even though you don’t like it I think it applies. I cannot in good conscience listen to these accusations. You have begun in rebellion against scripture (Matthew 18, 1 Tim 5:19) and continue in everything you write. You continue to slander and act in unbiblical ways, repent!
Josh said… “What should we do if we’re ever in a situation where a dictatorial “pastor” sexually abuses one of our children? Besides going to the police, we would need to immediately leave that church and warn others before it happens to them. It would certainly not be virtuous to remain silent about such a matter, would it? Would you not tell the other parents at that church simply because the pastor adopts the same confession as you? I hope not.”
-Its comical and offensive at the same time that you would use this analogy in regards to Dr. Bob. The things that Joel is accusing Dr. Bob of don’t even come close to child molestation (and you think my analogy is bad). The accusations are merely Dr. Bob said and Dr. Bob did and nothing else. Dr. Bob didn’t recognize me, he didn’t give right reasons for deacons, he used questionable language to me, he said false things about ex members, he lies, he doesn’t invest in my life during men’s discipleship, he has a worthless fundraising group called the crusaders club, he is paying the wrong people in the ministry, he did some questionable things with funds from his past apologetics ministry, and we have DVD’s to back it up and so on and so on. If you all made a DVD against Dr. Bob and people found it in 20 years does that mean the you were all true and Dr. Bob is automatically guilty for the things that he was accused of because you made a DVD? “Have you ever watched a live trial” Joshua? You see, this is all he said she said and I have had enough of it!
Joshua said… Joel even alluded in one of his earlier posts that he expected those who’ve experienced this sort of abuse to be comforted and those who’re still obsessed with the man to be angry.
-I am angry, only not with Dr. Bob. I am angry with everything going on here. Without Biblical warrant I do not know how you all can continue in good conscience.
Danny said… The truth is that Dr. Bob is not perfect and never claimed to be. You speak of his pride and arrogance, all the while Dr. Bob is proclaiming his inadequacy and his need for Christ to do anything. One of the things I admire about Dr. Bob is that he never makes you feel like he is the perfect guy up on stage preaching about how do be a better husband like he is, or how to be a better Christian like he is, or how to witness and evangelize better like he does. He doesn’t put on the fake pastor mask and preach the perfection of himself all the while making every one of his listeners feel obsolete because they are themselves struggling against their sin and striving on in their process of sanctification. Dr. Bob lives what he believes and can believe what he lives. He has a Biblical view of man and continues to preach that to a humanistic world. I am not surprised that people have gotten their feeling hurt by Dr. Bob because he said it would happen. He said that he would let you down and violate your rights. He told you up front that he was a sinner just like you and me. So it seems that you and others have gotten ahead of yourselves, wishing that Dr. Bob was different and did things the way that you would do them or the way that would make you feel better. The truth is that Dr. Bob has a unique ministry and is a unique man. I have been able to accept that, why cant you? I am not interested in changing the way Dr. Bob teaches, communicates, interacts and lives his life. I respect him for who God has made him to be. He is an apologist who defends the faith and that is his mission. He has found and is in the process of finishing God will for his life. You should do the same.
Mosher PeriodCal said… “Just because you have a unique ministry does not mean that you are not accountable, you should know better especially from one who is going to Seminary...”
Joshua said… “You have given a total license for immorality with these statements. Not to mention that your opinion and your moral recommendations are admittedly baseless given your admission at the beginning (ii).”
Joel said… “What is so unique about his ministry compared to all the many other apologetics ministries out there? I agree with you that he is a unique man, but unique man does not equal unique or mighty ministry, else once again, old Benny would have one also and maybe we should all leave him alone. Nor does unique man or even unique man with a unique ministry automatically make one above reproach and unquestionable in word and conduct.”
Danny’s response: I have been listening to sermons that Dr. Bob has been doing recently about the doctrine of eldership. They are quite good and I know that Dr. Bob is not opposed to a plurality of elders. FCC is a church plant in Southern California and Dr. Bob is not interested in ordaining the first group of people with “a guitar, good looks, and the gift of gab” as he so humorously says. Choosing elders takes time and should be done wisely and not hasty. I commend him for taking his time. What if he had ordained Joel as an Elder? He is obviously not ready for the true character of Joel has been clearly seen in his Biblical disobedience as seen on this blog.
I grew up in Orange County and if you survey the churches in the area I think you would agree that Morey has a unique ministry. I mean that in a good way of course. My wife and I were blest to have been under solid reformed teaching when we were at FCC. Morey’s apologetics class, Sunday sermons, books, lectures, tracks, and seminars were all so very “unique” compared to other ministries out there. You know what we can say about most churches in Southern California: their donuts, coffee cart, dramas, interpretive dances, comedy nights, potlucks, TV lounges, catchy songs, feel good messages ext. I do think that FCC is a unique church and Dr. Bob is a rare and unique teacher however I never said that he is above accountability. I would not be surprised if we would see elders chosen in the near future. The fact is I don’t know and am not the leader who is in charge of appointing elders. I will leave that up to Dr. Bob. Lets pray that the elders will be raised up at FCC and be evident to Dr. Bob so that they can continue to grow and be a blessing to all the hungry Christians in Orange County.
danny, see dave's comment on part 4 (April 24, 2008 12:32 AM ) to you that addresses what you just posted. you conveniently ignore Ephes. 5:11.
Joel said… "Further, do you think it was then wrong for me to stick to my guns after so much patience and doing what I said I would (i.e. make this letter public)? Did I not give him opportunities to keep all this concealed?"
Danny’s response… Yes it is wrong, read my previous comments to see why.
Joel said… "Again, you are now assuming a third sinful thing about my heart and intentions: slander. If someone can show me at any point that what I said is false I will be the first to make a public retraction. Can you show me how in my letter to him where I slandered him?"
-You are making unbiblical charges against an elder and should repent and discontinue this nonsense.
Joel said… "How do you know that I have unbiblical motives? Because I want to speak out for the truth, to protect the church, and help vindicate those slandered and lied about?"
-read my prior posts where I show that you are in direct violation of 1 Timothy 5:19-21 and Matthew 18:15-19.
Joel said… "Also I do not have a campaign against FCC. As my letter says several times, I love FCC and the people there. But If I have a campaign against Dr. Bob than his current batch of disciples equally have a campaign to defend him at all costs, for in fact, they have written more on their blogs than I have in mine. So they have a larger campaign than I do."
-I have not read everything over at Biblical Thought on the subject however I have never seen Dr. Morey or “his disciples” post anything even resembling a ten page letter pointing out character flaws in you Joel or anyone else for that matter. Unless you can back up this statement then I would say it must be retracted.
Bloggers, it seems some of the bobbie moron ey defenders don't really want to know (like danny) the truth. They sheepishly repeat moreyisms and manipulate scripture just like their mentor, lord sith. You don't fall for that crap anymore right! They further attack the saints who woke up and left by God's grace w/o cause. Bobbie will only appoint elders once he gets his (estimated) cool $1M + from the building sale and then they will be his kind of yes-men, the kind that like to bend over. That's if the fcc church is still around after he collects his dough. Why else did he get rid of the mulroneys and maxhams (key staff members) unless he's just goin thru the motions of pretending to want to keep the church in operation till his payday comes in when may escow closes. When moron issued the edict that anyone caught reading anti-moron blogs et. al. would be disciplined, isn't that an attempt to drive more people out of the church so he doesn't have to deal with them when he gets his dough? Just wondering? Danny will find out some day. Maybe avoid wasting time on people like him for fools show lack of wisdom. we have to laugh at this otherwise we go crazy. everyone need mercy and grace though continually.
hope the last post didn't sound too uncharitable or harsh. some of the crew are really testing people's patience. pray mercy/grace for all.
Colin Powell thank you for your comments, glad you too are visiting this site.
For a seminary student, sure seems like Danny has a LOT of time on his hands to write so much. Maybe he ought to by that book also.
Good words Joshua, Mosher, Dave, and the others. Nice work Dave.
Danny when I get the time I will try to address your use of 1 Tim. 5:19 and Matt. 18.
Henk...well, a bit crass, but you had me laughing. Do you have a brother named "Slappy"?
-Joel
Danny P,
I want to affirm by Christian love to you as a brother in Christ Danny P. You are going to a good seminary and I pray that God will make you effective for Him, and HIM ALONE.
In response to my entry about the importance of accountability to ELDERS,
"however I never said that he is above accountability. I would not be surprised if we would see elders chosen in the near future."
Brother, I agree you never said that Dr. Morey is above accountability. I will not accuse you of saying this explicitly. We both agree DR. Robert MOREY (as in Dr. from his D. MIN and not PHD from FAITH THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY) needs to be accountable, but is Dr. Bob accountable to a board of elders RIGHT NOW? That is a problem. You and I know that this is not biblical, and he needs to be confronted and I recommend that you exhort him in to do the right thing, in a spirit of love. I think you can do this and it would be much more meaningful rather than it coming from the guys who are 'burned' by him. If you love Dr. Bob, can you do this for the sake of Bishop MOrey and the Lord?
I know Dr. Bob knows the biblical requirement of plurality of Elders, because I learned it from him as a young tadpole Christian! Then I look at the ministry of FCC, and what do you see? ONe elder, and what numbers of Deacons there are, are dwindling...it's not going in the right direction Dan.
You confidently asserted that there would be in the near future, elders...but let's dust up our logic please (and I'm not talking about the overpriced course by Morey titled "A COurse in LOGIC", that cost more than a community college class on Modal Logic, and even then Morey does not give you the bang for the bucks, this coming from an apologist who claims in Bob MOrey Live that he's greater than Bahnsen!). We need precision in our terms if want to have a meaningful and rational exchange. What exactly does 'near future' mean? Let's not make it vague, other wise there's no truth value to it.
Let me cut to the chase: HOw long exactly (in terms of days, weeks, months, years) is it too long to have a board with a plurality of Elders?
Danny P,
"You are making unbiblical charges against an elder and should repent and discontinue this nonsense. "
1.) I want to see you explain your philosophy of ministry to me. Given the scenario we have, assuming the charges that Joel brought up are true, and given the circumstances that there's a pastor with no accountability to other Elders, and Joel has sent a letter to the guy already, what is the next thing JOel is suppose to do? Let's probe this a little, this is a major crux of the issue.
2.) Danny, would you consider it to be biblical warrant if I can demonstrate from Scripture that when a high servant of the Gospel acts hypocritical and contrary to the gospel, that he is confronted in public and in front of others?
To all:
I am going to paste the link to this website in here as well. This is a link to a series of audio files detailing Bob Morey's theft, lies, slander, etc. coming from the mouths of multiple witness that range the gamut from pastors to apologists to christian publishers, etc. Here it is:
http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media
Joshua,
THe link works, I"m listening to it
Ok good. It must have something to do with my computer.
Danny P,
I appreciate you sticking in this tread trying to converse. Thank you for wanting to do the right thing.
but you have to answer some of the questions thrown to you. no hurry, take your time but try.
a leader in a Christian church needs accountability. if he cannot get his own elders yet, at least get an oversight from another church. if it is a church plant, where is the oversight church?
it is so in-consistent to say that Clark (Morey's former general) was not ordained so he cannot start a church. why can't he start a church just like Morey did?
have you ever asked Morey where he got ordained? (hopefully not the $19.99 ordination from some unitarian church on the web)
in listening to the audio files at http://www.putfile.com/lieutenantcolumbo/media put together by the wesel brothers, it's apparent that robert morey has numerous times SCHEMEMED to steal monies from the saints, tell lies, slander them et. al. They even use the word scheme, that morey is known for weaving together seemingly brilliant schemes to con people out of their monies. It has come to light by reliable sources that when morey - with help of his crew - told lies from the pulpit about javier v. and lenny g. , that he subsequently had his properties place into a trust, presumably for the purpose of protecting them from lawsuits (as in slander etc.). Further, he has apparently discussed retiring to a certain south america country, that just happens to not have extradition to the U.S. in case one is prosecuted for various types of crimes and/or has lawsuits file against one. If this is not classic morey scheming, what is. o. j. simpson, the sociopath would be proud of robert morey and how he victimizes people, then puts things in place so the cannot get to his assets. at one time when according to insiders, when the building sale concludes, the $1M or so to go to morey would actually go to his family members and/or now to a trust that is protected from litigation. is it possible mr. morey is a sociopath in sheep's clothing? has he simply gone nuts? pray for the guy. pray now that more is coming to light, God, Creator of heaven and earth will deal with things as He sees fit. the saints are doing what they think is right to love thy neighbor in an attempt to shield others from being victims of mr. moron. we need God's help as well in this matter.
I also find it odd that the "Cathrine Kalstaldi" (and not the lawyer here in Irvine), who was so adamant that I answer her four questions has not been back yet to respond with anything. If you are real and out there, why don't you let us know and I will even meet you for coffee (with a witness).
joe m:
"it is so in-consistent to say that Clark (Morey's former general) was not ordained so he cannot start a church. why can't he start a church just like Morey did?"
Very true. Not that it matters at this point (Joel made some good points in his open letter about Martin Luther, etc.)but Clark actually was ordained. Here is the proof:
www.bobmorey.com
Joshua,
Thanks for pointing that out. I do understand, my point was even if Clark wasn't ordained was can't he start a church.
I want to know, where did Morey get his ordination from? Was he even ordained. Because he is very inconsistent.
Yeah,
Where did Morey get ordained from anyways?
I wonder also from time to time, if all the guys who Morey said discipled him--Gordon Clark, Van Til, Hans Rookmaker, Schaeffer, Walter Martin, etc, knows about how conniving he was...I imagine they would be sad for Dr. Bob...
Dr. Morey even says in his apologetic lectures that he is the one who invented the label "presuppositional apologetics". It's right there in the audio. He also says that he bascially is the only one to have solved the dilema between the two opposing schools of thought (i.e. evidentialism vs. presupp.) and says that the solution is in a synthesis. Yet if you know much about these schools of thought, you would know that such a task is not possible and from what I remember hearing on those audio lectures, he claims to make a synthesis between the two, but what he proposes as this "synthesis" shows that he does not really understand either school of thought, especially the presuppositional side.
Actually, I heard of the synthesis as verificationalism.
Stupid Sheep,
No offense, but do you know what you are talking about? I am glad, however, that you are reading these things and I want you to know that you are welcome here. I also want you to feel free to challenge me on anything. I will not treat you harshly but will do my best to answer you fairly and if I am shown wrong on anything, I will retract it and apologize.
Honestly, no i don't. I was responding the most recent anonymous commenter. Sorry i did not specify. I was going through a study on the authencity of Scripture, and apologetic methods came up. The person was teaching verificationalism as a fusion or middle ground between presup and evidentialism. I followed mostly, but I don't care to subscribe to any one method as it really depends on the person and situation. Of course, this is totally off topic and i'm not sure what spurred me to reply to that anyway, since they are anonymous and that's old, they probably won't be checking back.
Becky,
Was that initial comment posted on here by you with the intention to counter the anonymous poster and provide some support for Bob’s claims of being the apologetical revolutionary? If so (and it would make sense since Bob obviously the subject being discussed), I want to briefly tell you why you’re wrong about Bob (because he hasn’t addressed the issue and even if he did it does nothing to help his ridiculous assertions) and about the principle in general:
Verificationism (which is now widely considered to be a “dead” philosophical school left over from the Vienna Circle by the way) can be schematically stated as: A sentence S is meaningful if and only if we have a method of telling whether what S says is true or false.
Is this what you think Bob has proposed as the uniting principle to both schools? I’ve never heard him propose this and I’ve sadly listened to/read a *great* deal of his material in the past.
Verificationism is absolutely *not* a way to unite the two schools (it is intentionally anti-metaphysical) and I’ve never heard Bob even tackle the subject in general (so its obviously not the way he “revolutionizes” the debate). The only way I could see this school of thought having any relation whatsoever to Christian apologetics has to do with an *objection* to the Van-Tillian presuppositional method. Specifically, utilizing Barry Stroud’s article entitled “Transcendental Arguments” (contained in the Journal of Philosophy Vol. 65), an objector could claim that presuppositional apologists are simply resting upon a verificationist criterion of meaningfulness. The objection would be that transcendental arguments at base can be reduced to the slogan: “the meaning of a sentence is its method of verification” (which for a variety of reasons could be reduced to absurdity). Stroud formulates this position in his attack upon P.F. Strawson’s main arguments in his book “Individuals”. He does so because Strawson utilizes a number of modernized, Kantian transcendental arguments, in order to establish what he perceives to be an accurate “conceptual scheme”.
Who was this apologetics teacher that labeled this as the union of the two schools? Was there any reference to Schlick, Carnap, Wittgenstein, etc.? I have a hard time believing someone is actually teaching this.
-------------------
Now, it seems apropos to comment upon Bob’s supposed “revolutionary apologetics” and his “rejection” of the two schools. I wrote what I’m pasting below to a friend regarding a “Bob Morey Live” clip where Bob misrepresents the late Greg Bahnsen and his position. A caller calls into the show and says how much he is being blessed by Bahnsen’s book on Van-Til. Bob begins to moan in agony, tap his fingers, and joke a bit about him being dead. Bob goes on to say that Bahnsen “re-wrote” Van-Til, that Bahnsen was against the use of evidences, that Van-Til looked at Bob’s booklet on apologetics and said that Bob was the “only one that understood him”, that the caller should stop reading Bahnsen’s book, etc. Here is my response:
I was particularly sickened after re-listening to Bob's negativity toward Bahnsen and his book on Van Til for a number of reasons:
1) I once was sitting at dinner with Bob and when another individual next to me explained to Bob how much Bahnsen has helped them with their apologetics. He even pulled out Bahnsen's shorter apologetic work and read a quote aloud to Bob. As soon as Bahnsen's name was mentioned a frown came across Bob's face and he grabbed the book after the quote was read. Bob's response was that Bahnsen "stole" that quote from him (!) [a completely random quote mind you] and that Bahnsen was dishonest for not giving Bob credit. Bob then continued to trash Bahnsen by bringing up his theonomic views (which obviously has nothing to do with a practical application of Bahnsen's apologetic) and talk about how Bahnsen "didn't understand Van Til". After seeing many others bring Bahnsen's name into conversations around Bob I saw this behavior repeated on numerous occasions (as the recording establishes).
2) I have questioned Bob on his apologetic method on a number of occasions and I've come to the conclusion that he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. He does not understand presuppositionalism *or* evidentialism and like he does with so many other systems of thought: he refuses to honestly research the issue, claims he is an authority, builds a straw man and then knocks it down. I asked him what, specifically, he disagreed with about presuppositionalism. He couldn't answer me. I asked him for a positive representation on what his "revolutionary" method was. He couldn't answer me. I asked him if he even knew what the particular disagreements were between Frame, Bahnsen, Clark, et al. He couldn't answer me. Bottom line - he does not know what either schools of thought truly teach. He claims to be able to unite the two methods. This is utter nonsense. That would be akin to uniting calvinism and arminianism - they are, like presuppositionalism and evidentialism, mutually exclusive. It is funny to hear the story about Van Til supposedly stating that he was the "only" one who understood him in that anyone, I mean anyone, who reads Bob's little booklet/outline on apologetics would be utterly confused about what his position even is. There is no way Van Til actually said that. I just can't believe it for a second. Humorously, Bob goes on to recommend Frame's book over Bahnsen's when Frame himself has so many disagreements with Morey's little booklet (http://www.frame-poythress.org/frame_articles/1980Morey.htm). Bob even claims to be the one to invent the term "presuppositionalism"! Bob is a prime example of a self-obsessed, delusional psychopath.
3) It is evident from Bob's talk of Bahnsen that he *never* even read Bahnsen's book on Van Til. If you own the book, look up every time Bahnsen used the word evidence and see for yourself how utterly wrong Bob was in his analysis of the book. Bahnsen has devoted hours and hours to the subject of how evidences are to be used in apologetics. Here is one example of Bahnsen doing just that: http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa206.htm. There is absolutely no way Bob could've read Bahnsen's book and come up with that interpretation. Bahnsen discussed it constantly. Bahnsen spoke of evidences so much that the Clarkian crowd accused him of being an evidentialist.
4) This is all even more evidence of Bob's shoddy scholarship. Contrary to popular belief: his teaching is shallow, his ability to deal with intellectual issues is low, he constantly misrepresents and lies about other people's positions, and he has not "revolutionized" anything. This is all due to the fact that he is doing this for nothing more than greed, money, fame, and power. It is almost a waste of time to take him seriously enough to write this email because I no longer even think he believes most of these things himself.
No.
I was stating a pre-existing fusion of the two. Dr. Bob's method seems to be both, but not calling either by their name. I disagree with the anonymous poster.
Becky,
1) I don't know which question the "No." is supposed to answer.
2) You said:
"I was stating a pre-existing fusion of the two."
Does this mean that you had no intention of defending Bob with your mention of verificationism? You never said where you heard this "fusion" and who specifically was teaching it as verificationism. How does this fuson work and how can that save Bob's position?
3) Bob's "method" isn't a method at all. The two schools cannot be united and therefore his attempted use of both is only a result of an absence of scholarship and understanding on his part. I have asked him, since he is so against both positions, to give show me the proper positive apologetic method. His response: "My method is exegetical". That is all he would say. I asked him how it differed from the perspectives of Van Til/Clark/Bahnsen/Frame and he said, "because its exegetical". That is not an answer nor is it a positive construction. He simply gave me a buzz word and moved on. Again, he dips into both schools because he is inconsistent and misunderstands both positions. He contradicts himself constantly in doing so and so his “method” is basically to assert one faulty argument after another. Even when he does dip back and forth into the various schools he completely misrepresents each position.
4) In what ways do you disagree with the anonymous poster? Do you have a counterargument to offer?
1) I was answering no to your first question (Was that initial comment posted on here by you with the intention to counter the anonymous poster and provide some support for Bob’s claims of being the apologetical revolutionary?), which made the rest of your comment irrelevant, so i only skimmed it. In my reply to Joel, you can see that i said i heard it from "a person." If it was Dr. Bob or anyone else Joel knew, i would've said their name. Also, i said it was off-topic, so obviously i wan't talking about Dr. Bob.
2) Yes, i had no intention of defending Dr. Bob with my mention of verficationism. Anonymous was saying Dr. Bob says the solution is a synthesis. I learned (and i hardly hear mention of it) that there already is a synthesis, and it's called verficationism. The person teaching this is a fan of CS Lewis, and you probably don't know him. It doesn't save Dr. Bob's position.
3) What is wrong with not subscribing to either school? Of course they don't mix, but a well-balanced approach needs both. Some people respond better to one, some people the other. Some people need one followed by the other. Life isn't so easy to use one and expect it to work. People are different and each a complex creature. Maybe you need to take some time away from attacking Dr. Bob to study sociology or anthropology or whatever. When you study human nature (just by reading Scripture and watching those areound you) then you can better sharpen your apologetical skills.
4) When i reread their comment, i neither agree nor disagree. Dr. Bob is hard to pin down on this. That's not bad because why waste so much time with labels? When i first started attending FD lectures, i thought he was presup. Everything he said supported that. It wasn't until later when some big Bahnsen fans emerged from college group, that i heard him say he wasn't. It doesn't matter to me because i believe a pastor or anyone can have any approach they want as long as they stick to Truth. It's not doctrine, so there is freedom.
this is a repost of comment made on April 17, 2008 8:17 PM (Part 3), but with the blind disciple part deleted.
Why?
Now that there is so much material out there for people to read on morey, when FCCrs read hopefully the light bulb will go on and when it does, they’ll realize for themselves the things in that post. Better probably we not rub it in their face and sound resentful, angry, bitter. They might take the wrong way. it was only meant to prod them to take look at testimony about morey's issues that have hurt so many. In galatians it talks about restoring a brother in gentleness etc. and not to produce too much sorrow and anger in them otherwise it might interfere with their getting over their sin and moving on. We have to remember too many exFCC were blind back then too and didn’t get it.
Revised Post:
We take it you people saw what this Faith Defender, really a “Robert Morey Defender”
wrote on Robert Morey’s “Attack the Bretheren website?” aka www.biblicalthought.com .
In light of Joel posting his resignation letter, it’s about time to expose (Ephes. 5:11) some of the blind disciples at FCC. But isn’t this what Bobby wants? The poor fools over there don’t even know it. Pray for them and pray for those who left and pray for Robert Morey.
on biblicalthought.com Stephen Macasil on april 14 wrote:
Thank you for the wise insight.
“3. If they saw the joy and fellowship we had at last Sat.’s Men’s breakfast, they would
become angry and jealous that, while we were experiencing joy, they were being miserable.”
Response to Stephen:
So you’re using this as some kind of warped justification that you are righteous and that those (who had their eyes opened by God) that left once they saw the truth about your leader’s pathological lying are somehow not righteous when in fact they followed the leading of the Holy Spirit? How dare you. How dare you. How dare you.
Consider a group of mafia wise guys (about 40) meeting at a mountain retreat. They say to fellow members later, “ If the other mafia family saw the joy and fellowship we had at last Saturday’s breakfast, they would become angry and jealous that, while we were experiencing joy, they were being miserable.”
Duh, they’re still a bunch of crooks and you guys still don’t get it. The fact you guys had a good time eating sausage and eggs could mean you’re a band of blind disciples gulping down everything your leader shovels down your willing pipe. You guys haven’t figured it out yet have you. There are videos by 3 letter agencies on how to tell if someone is lying. Check it out. Further your exposed leader keeps ranting at how those who left are full of bitterness, anger. He has it all wrong as usual. People are sick to their guts that he’s still deceiving you all and you can’t see it. Don’t you know that when you say, “This is the only place I can go to get this kind of teaching” that you fall into his trap? Guys like him love when weak-minded saps think like that.
Don’t you know that when you assume that mind-set you’ve given way to blindness to take over. Why do you think you keep looking the other way when the Holy Spirit kicks you in the rear and raises red flags continually over your leader’s many deceptions/abuses? Don’t you know that he knows that’s why you are there and he continually mind programs you with that bull? Wake up! You guys (his blind crew) are better than this. Just ask God to reveal to you the truth of what’s really going on at FCC and He will. Do you not have faith to do this?
Remember what Justin Alfred told you, “Not to get caught up in criticizing those not on your same theological level. Don’t you know that the Holy Spirit does miracles through old ladies who don’t know a lick about theology.” How dare you people constantly criticize the brethren. Those who left have repented about this. Why have you not? How many of you each week still meet and talk about what you think the failings of Calvary Chapel are? Pray that if RM is deceiving you it will be immediately exposed. Amen and Amen.
Instead of www.biblicalthought.com maybe it be better titled www.biblicalpuke.com since they seem so lustily focused on slandering those who have left after God revealed to them the truth of the many lies/deceptions et. al. that take place at FCC.
¨ Micah 6:8
¨ Proverbs 29:24
¨ The ninth of the Ten Commandments
¨ Proverbs 6:16
¨ It is forbidden in the Christian community - Col. 3:9
¨ It is an expression of evil - Hosea 12:1
¨ It conceals hatred - Proverbs 36:24
¨ Leads to pride and oppression - Jeremiah 5:27
¨ All habitual liars forfeit eternal salvation - Rev. 21:27
¨ John 8:44
¨ Lying is incompatible with the divine nature of God. - Numbers 23:19
¨ Truth stands the test of time; lies are soon exposed. - Proverbs 12:19
¨ Proverbs 26:18-19
April 17, 2008 8:17 PM
Anonymous said...
is there any way to force the crew over at biblicalthought to read these transcripts by john macarthur? maybe by some hope they wake up. pray that God will open more eyes of FCCites to the corruption over there! I wonder if having read, if they'll still think their leader models true biblical love? it is apparent that many of the post on this site are done to warn in love, in truth, the FCCites that the wool is being pulled over their heads. They however "CHOOSE" to see these warnings as anger, bitterness of people who left. But they fail to see that it is the One True God, the Alpha and Omega who has opened their eyes. So sad they don't have eyes to see and ears to hear in this matter.
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1862
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1863
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1864
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1865
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1866
http://www.gty.org/Resources/transcripts/1867
"Greg Bahnsen and his position. A caller calls into the show and says how much he is being blessed by Bahnsen’s book on Van-Til. Bob begins to moan in agony, tap his fingers, and joke a bit about him being dead. Bob goes on to say that Bahnsen “re-wrote” Van-Til, that Bahnsen was against the use of evidences, that Van-Til looked at Bob’s booklet on apologetics and said that Bob was the “only one that understood him”, that the caller should stop reading Bahnsen’s book, etc."
Unfortunately, this sounds like typical morey. a friend who went to very good seminary, could also see the weaknesses in Bob's arguments like this that he would give on various schools of thought/doctrine. I found that the typical person sitting in the pew was vulnerable to being conned by morey (as are all laymen being vulnerable to being conned by those who know how to swing technical language persuasively), but the advanced seminary student could see right thru some of morey's arguments etc, detecting his weaknesses and errors in the argumentum laadi daa.
"4) This is all even more evidence of Bob's shoddy scholarship. Contrary to popular belief: his teaching is shallow, his ability to deal with intellectual issues is low, he constantly misrepresents and lies about other people's positions, and he has not "revolutionized" anything. This is all due to the fact that he is doing this for nothing more than greed, money, fame, and power. It is almost a waste of time to take him seriously enough to write this email because I no longer even think he believes most of these things himself."
unfortunately, there is truth in this. when many of us caught bob in lie, it completely ruined our trust in him to the point where many of us can no longer listen to his tapes/CDs/DVDs because we don't know what to believe. some have totally trashed and thrown out all their bob morey materials because they don't know when he lies and when he tells the truth. it is like with any christian author, you have to look up every claim etc. they make to see if what they are saying is true or not. you'd be suprised at times as to how much error there is out there. that is not to say it is all intentional, sometimes it is a simple mistake.... but with morey there seeems too be a patern of misrepresenting people so you have to carefully research to see if his claims are true or not.
"3) What is wrong with not subscribing to either school? Of course they don't mix, but a well-balanced approach needs both. Some people respond better to one, some people the other. Some people need one followed by the other. Life isn't so easy to use one and expect it to work. People are different and each a complex creature. Maybe you need to take some time away from attacking Dr. Bob to study sociology or anthropology or whatever. When you study human nature (just by reading Scripture and watching those areound you) then you can better sharpen your apologetical skills."
Becky, this is because it is the LORD God who makes one born from above. It is the LORD God who leads one to a genuine saving faith so that people can accept the free gift of salvation that leads to eternal life (john 5:24). The LORD God can show that no one is beyond God's divine mercy; that no one is beyond the reach and impact of their hearing the true gospel. Only the LORD God can open the eyes, heart, understanding to the true gopsel just like He did for Lydia long ago and for us. For there is only One True God who is sovereign and makes all other gods fools. All apologetic methods that claim to be the one method of truth are bogus. It is up to God who becomes born from above (John). how can any apologetic method claim arrogantly to be the answer? You never know who will be saved so you preach the gospel and never know who will respond to a saving faith in the Lord Jesus.
exxfccccc,
That is exactly what i'm saying. For someone to subscribe to one apologetic method would go against what you said. I'm saying to NOT be tied down like that.
I haven't thought about this post in a long time and just came across it... It was a humbling and excruciating experience reading the comments but edifying at the same time... Well here's my response over 10 years later. I have at least five people I need to respond to.
First, I apologize for the sarcasm I used in response to the anonymous blogger… You were right… please forgive me…
Second, I also repent to Joel and Nicki as well. Joel’s open letter discipled me more than I even realized at the time as a relatively new 22 year old believer. Over the years I came to see all the things that his letter warned about without even noticing I was agreeing with Joel's exact conclusions... By God’s grace, after graduating Biola and leaving FCC (I was there from 05-07), getting married, and moving for seminary, I realized and avoided these aspects of Dr. Bob’s example (obviously there was a little "hangover" so to speak during my first semester in seminary in 2008 as evidenced in these comments… but thankfully I went to a solid church in Louisville and had great pastoral examples as well and great professors and God sanctified and matured me over the years)… I need to footnote you now Joel for your help in keeping me from following in Dr. Bob’s footsteps since these truths are exactly what I realized were issues over the years and I really enjoyed re-reading your letter and other posts with "new eyes..." His ministry practice and conduct was a sad object lesson to me over the years in what not to do as a pastor... And now this bad example is even more crystallized in reading back through your testimony of your experience… Thank you for posting this. Please forgive me for putting my nose in this as a young immature believer. You were right. I was wrong… I am sorry. Also, your response to me was kind and gracious and full of wisdom and you called me out in all the right ways and I was laughing as I was agreeing with you correcting me as I re-read these comments : ) Thank you! You were correct in stating that I did not know him personally very well like you and others did. And like you mentioned, being taught from afar through lectures and books was probably the safest thing for me due to all that you and others went through... I was a young newer convert and miles away at Biola and really just attended the Monday night apologetics class and Sunday mornings and listened to a bunch of lectures but never really knew him all that well. I was lucky to learn at a “distance” and as I’m reading my younger self, his bad example was reflected in me at the time and I’m thankful for God’s providence getting me out of that toxic situation. I just prayed for you and your wife and for your life and ministry. I really hope you are doing well and that you’ve had an opportunity to use your gifts in a healthy church. Thanks again for everything you said. And just as a side note… You made mentioned a few times the contradictory nature of his teaching and practice and the odd and/or puzzling reality of it all... I can relate to that confusion about Morey… How can someone so gifted as a teacher with orthodox doctrine live such a contradictory life? I noticed the contradiction now more than ever before after recently thinking through things in hindsight and discussing with godly Christians and praying through the matter... This whole situation is so sad to me. So very very sad… Praying we can all learn from this and serve the Lord and his blood bought Church faithfully in holiness and in qualified ways in everything we do… Not just in our doctrine and teaching… But also in our care for people, attitudes, humility, and ministry practice all around and of course our personal sanctification.
Third, Gadfly, you were right… I just confessed to my uninformed comments at the time… Please forgive me for my sarcasm and way that I approached you… I was wrong and regret ever commenting on this blog… You were right to expose Morey’s faulty “I told you so” logic as an excuse and justification of his sin… You were right about my lack of compassion to those hurt... Please forgive me, brother. I really do regret that. You were right about the validity of Joel and Nicki speaking out (see above). You were right about the sensationalism of Morey. I realize that now. Also thank you for your prayers! It was good to get out of FCC when I did and go on to seminary to learn from godly examples and teachers. I'm so glad I was only there for a short period of time and at arms distance for the time I was there. I listened to a bunch of his lectures, read many of his books, but I was fortunate to avoid the abuse that you and others went through. I am so sorry that happened to any of you. And I’m sorry I foolishly defended him as well as the sinful and immature way I went about it. Also, please forgive me for the sarcasm and way I wrote to you… Like I mentioned above, It is painfully so clear to me reading this back that I was negatively influenced by his example at the time I wrote these comments 2008… I regret that… I am embarrassed by that. Please forgive me. And I hope you are doing well, brother! Just prayed for you.
Fourth, Joshua, great points in helping me see the issues brother. Thank you. And please forgive me for the way I responded. I was wrong. Also, thanks for the Bahnsen CD : ) Hope you are doing well! Prayed for you as well. Hope you are using your gifts to edify believers!
Fifth, Mosher Periodical, brother, you are exactly right. A true plurality of elders including guys like Joel and Tom would have been really helpful to squash these tactics long ago... But as it seems… That wasn't going to happen due to Morey’s pride. Thank you for your encouraging posts and for getting at a really important issue. Just prayed for you and hope you are doing well.
To anyone else who might have been hurt by my words defending Bob Morey... Please forgive me.
As someone who attended faith community and !listened to bob for years i can tell you Dr Bob was a liar par excellence.
I listened to hours of his tapes over the years and was always puzzled by the way he contradicts himself from tape to tape.
Also if you were to bring up someone other than dr bob rarely did he have any good thing to say.Always slander.
Thank God for Joel's courage to take a stand.
Dr. Morey was the most arrogant, crass, vulgar, crude, rude, irreverent so called pastor i ever had the misfortune of sitting under.
It was a shame as his books Death and the Afterlife and Battle of the Gods were great and could benefit many Brothers and Sisters.
I really don't know what his issues were.. I do know he was admonished many a time for the crude sexual innuendos and so called Sex jokes during sermons.
Morey truly was a liar and i truly hope he repented before he passed
Spending several hours poring over the Bob Morey posts here, I wanted to add my 2 cents... All of this happened a long time ago, and I was only involved for a brief time... but I was one of those who witnessed this same pattern of paranoid pastoral control, when Bob Morey used to pastor "New Life Bible Church" in the late 1980s. I moved from N.Y. to PA in order to 'sit' under him. He had a co-pastor and at least one deacon, as I recall. The church was renting a small meeting hall at the time. Shortly after I had arrived and settled into the area, I was suddenly made aware that there was trouble brewing between the co-pastor and Morey, and between Morey and several of the young families that sided with the co-pastor. The crux of the issue seemed to be about pastoral control; if there was anything about money, I was not aware of it at the time.
I knew there was trouble afoot when Morey phoned me at my job [no cell phones back then-- my supervisor had to tell me that someone was calling me on a company phone-- and started maligning these brethren and asking me what I knew; were they telling me anything negative about him? I hesitated to say anything, especially while on the phone at work, and that's when he said "You know, I could 'pull rank' on you" [i.e., use his pastoral authority to coerce me into telling him something... Well, I had left the Jehovah's Witnesses' extreme cult authority quagmire a few years previously, and I wasn't about to let that happen again, so I asked him not to call me at my job anymore. The following Sunday, in mid-Church service, all those who had a problem with Dr. Morey's ouster of his co-pastor [whom he now addressed as "Mr." rather than "Pastor" or even "Brother"] stood up and walked out of the church, never to return. Probably about 1/3 of the members walked out that day. I was among them, after that telephone call and threat of leveraging his 'authority' over me.
This split occurred around 1989 or 1990, when he lived in rural PA.
One more anecdote: When a young friend and myself were visiting Dr. Morey the previous year, in 1988, and he took us for a drive around the area, I was shocked and couldn't help laughing in embarrassment over the dirty language and jokes he told us driving the drive. It was as if he was desperately trying to show us that he was "one of the guys" by speaking about vulgar, sexual things. My friend and I were in our 20s at the time, but still found it shocking to hear a minister of the Gospel using such filthy talk, evidently to amuse us? test us? ...
Dr. Robert Morey was a 'character'! God have mercy on his soul, and that of his wife. I was very impressed with both of them at first, but found myself leaving the church very shortly afterward.... I see the same patterns of behavior in all the accounts written in this blog.
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