I have thought a lot about this before deciding to post anything like this on the web. The fact that I am saying what I am saying here will probably shock some people. For those who still attend Dr. Morey's church and/or ministry, they will immediately think that this is an angry rant of slander borne out of bitterness, envy, and pride. For the many who have been victims of Dr. Morey's abuse, it will be like a cool breeze and a glass of lemonade on a blistering day.
What I am actually posting is an article written by Philip Rosenthal (on his blog "The Voice of Reform"), titled: HOW ABUSIVE MINISTRIES DEFEND THEMSELVES. You can find it and more at: http://voiceofreform.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-abusive-ministries-defend.html. But first before you read it I would like to say a few words about my experience there.
I attended Dr. Morey's church, Faith Community Church, in Irvine, for about 5 years. I was also involved and helped his ministry Faith Defenders as well as worked for a short time at his California Biblical University and Seminary where I helped create syllabi for undergraduate courses. My wife and I served faithfully and tithed faithfully to the church and ministry. We were in charge of running the kids ministry. I was a deacon and also publicly ordained by Dr. Morey as a minister of the gospel. I preached numerous times for him on Sunday mornings when he was gone; I also taught his Monday night apologetics course at times. I was a regular teacher for the Sunday Seminary classes that took place before the main service. I taught courses in Evangelism, Hermeneutics, and Greek. I was also involved with four other men in an eldership program/think tank there. I oversaw a men's discipleship cell in the South County and I preached to all the men on the importance of discipleship at the men's retreat. I only say all this to help what I am saying have some inside knowledge and credibility. I learned a lot of good stuff while I was there under his teaching. I wish that were the whole story. I eventually left the church with my family because I lost all respect for Dr. Morey as a man and even to a large degree, as an honest scholar.
Dr. Morey is a gifted teacher, communicator, and thinker who has produced a ton of helpful works. Yet this is one of the main things that blinds people to the abuses, deceptions, and outright lies that he does (to name just several problems). It is very easy to overlook, ignore, or justify such abuses because of all the good that one gets while there. Anyone who tries to confront him or question him on any of these issues eventually gets it flipped on them, kicked out of the ministry, and labeled as a bad seed. The rest of the church is then commanded to have no communication with such people. They are effectively blacklisted. My wife and I were. While I was there I saw several blatant instances where Dr. Morey burned people so bad that some of them still have not fully recovered.
I realize that I am being quite general here and not getting into specifics. Believe me I can and I have. I have much documentation to attest to what I am saying, not to mention the dozens and dozens of broken souls and families from that man and his ministry. He is accountable to no one. The church has existed for 8 or so years, is about 200 or so people, and there are still no elders in the church. He is the sole leader. There are two reasons why I have decided to speak out about him. First, just recently there was another mass exodus from the church (I was part of another one a couple years ago, and there were more before me). The top leaders of the church, most of the deacons and about 40 other people have recently left. Dr. Morey accused two of these leaders of plotting to take over the ministry and of stealing funds from it also. I know these two men well and nothing could be further from the truth. They were devoted disciples who built his biblical school from scratch and who counseled full time people in the church. He has tried to demonize them. This has angered me and I feel compelled to speak out and warn others who either go there or might consider going there.
The second reason I now feel compelled to speak out is because when I initially left the church, I did so silently. My main motivation and concern was the people at the church who knew nothing, but were getting fed good teaching (for the most part) on Sunday mornings. At that time I wrote Dr. Morey a 10 page letter listing all the reasons for why I was leaving. I heard from several sources there that he never read it but just mocked it. If he had read it, he would have learned that I pleaded and asked him not to attack my character or reputation or even my family. I had seen him do this many times over to people who tried to leave so I assumed he would do it to me. I said in the letter that my only course of defense against him doing this would be that I would release the 10 page letter to the public. This blog entry is not that letter, that may come later if there is expressed interest. Amazingly, he attacked my character and reputation to at least two people (there is probably more). The first time I was involved and speaking at a Worldview conference where he called the lead organizer, a good friend of mine, and not only did he invite himself on the lineup as a speaker, but when he heard that I was there he tried to tell my friend what a bad person I was. I was furious when I heard this. However, I still at that time did not release my letter (which would be damaging). The second time he called my pastor and told him that I was unstable and dangerous. Thankfully, his lies were seen for what they were. If you think that exposing scandelous sins of Christian leaders is itself a form of sinful gossip or slander, I would encourage you to also read the following article written by Philip Rosental: http://voiceofreform.blogspot.com/2006/01/why-we-shouldnt-cover-up-scandal.html
In the below article by Philip Rosenthal he says in one place: "Christians should be taught to beware of abusive and unethical leaders and hold them accountable rather than blindly following authority." Thus I am passing this on to try to do just this, to teach people to beware of abusive ministries in general and of this man in particular. Again, Rosenthal says, "The are many other tools abusive leaders use to defend themselves against accountability, but the abusive interrogation is one of the most powerful. This practice needs to be attacked and stopped, because if is successfully stopped, then the entire abuse system of abusive ministries will collapse – rather like how the Soviet Union fell apart once they stopped the government killing people and exiling them to Siberia for speaking up." This again is what I am trying to do by posting this.
This article amazed me because it describes EVERY tactic that Dr. Robert Morey uses against people who dare question his sin. The articles hits it on the epicenter.
Enjoy.
HOW ABUSIVE MINISTRIES DEFEND THEMSELVES
Philip Rosenthal
25 Jan 2006.
When one hears news of unethical behaviour in some ministries, one may wonder how the leader managed to avoid being held accountable. Many such ministries have developed sophisticated mechanisms to defend themselves from accountability. Often these methods have become part of the senior leadership culture, but no one else knows about them. Thus they can catch people by surprise. Unsuspecting enthusiastic young Christians involve themselves under the authority of a dynamic and successful ministry leadership – not realising that the leader and his organisational hierarchy is itself not subject to proper authority checks and balances. We all like to think that the ministry to which we belong is spiritual and in the will of God, but multiple scandals have to force us to sober up and consider what we can do to protect our own ministry against falling into such behaviour.
THE 'KANGAROO COURT', 'GANG UP' OR 'ABUSIVE INTERROGATION'
One of the most effective methods is the ‘Kangaroo Court’, otherwise known as the ‘gang up’ or ‘abusive interrogation’. The person raising an objection is invited to a meeting, to discuss his concerns. He is not allowed to bring any witnesses, as the meeting is supposedly a 'friendly one'. He is also asked not to take notes at the meeting, since it is 'friendly'. On arrival he finds four to six senior leaders in the ministry waiting for him. Nevertheless, the issues he has come to discuss will not be discussed. The meeting has one purpose only - to neutralise the person trying to hold the ministry accountable – by any means possible.
The abusive leader may has usually developed something of a ‘personality cult following’. Some loyal yes-men may participate in such behaviour with the best intentions, believing they are protecting the ministry from a ‘troublemaker’ or ‘division’.
Sometimes the leaders will be introduced in a grandiose manner, in an effort to intimidate the objector - using big titles and bloated achievements. Then the accusations begin. The leaders attack the objector with any type of accusation they can think of. The objector may try to defend himself, but this will not be allowed. If he tries to do so, another leader will accuse him of disrespect. At this point it becomes evident that the meeting is an ambush and is not a friendly discussion about concerns with the ministry. There is no logical or fair discussion. The leaders know that if they were to allow this, they may lose, so they don't allow it. They just attack. The abusive leaders take turns to attack and may interrupt each other to add to the abusive accusations.
HOW TO FIND ACCUSATIONS AGAINST AN INNOCENT PERSON
How do the leaders find the accusations? Anything in the objectors favour is reversed in these attacks. For example, if he has raised the same concerns with other leaders, then he is accused of 'slander'. If some of the other leaders agree with him, then he is accused of 'divisiveness'. An objection to the ministry raised at the meeting becomes evidence of 'disrespect'. If he wanted to bring a witness or wants confirmation of records, then he is accused of 'not trusting the leaders'. If he doesn't bring a witness, then he can be accused of 'acting alone'. Raising problems in the ministry is 'troublemaking'. If the objector is part of the ministry leadership, he can be accused of 'unsubmissiveness'. If he is not part of the leadership, then he can be accused of 'lack of accountability' or 'not being a leader' and thus having no right to raise objections. A general accusation that can be levelled at anyone raising objections to a ministry' behaviour is 'a bad attitude', since this is unprovable. If he is disagreeing with the ministry tradition, then this must be evidence of 'pride'. An objection to a policy of the ministry is 'hurtful' to the leaders of the ministry. All of the above require 'repentance'.
The leaders may try to attack the status of the objector. A technique is to make them wait a long time outside. Then they can be attacked for any reason e.g. marital status; lack of ordination or leadership status within the ministry; spiritual maturity; sanity etc.
Most of all, however, the leaders aim to attack the character of the person raising the objections to the ministry.
Another source of items to attack is issues totally unrelated and irrelevant to the current issues in question. Take trivial past incidents and blow them up into big issues trying to prove guilt. This practice is know as ‘manufacturing offence’ and is related to bearing false witness against ones neighbour – a violation of the 9th commandment, with the intention of undermining or destroying his reputation.
If the abusive leader doesn't know anything against the objector, then he can at least in some ministries use his 'spiritual gift of discernment'. i.e. Pretend that the 'Holy Spirit' has shown him all kinds of problems in the life and background of the victim/objector.
Efforts are made to get the objector to 'confess his sin'. If he does so, this can be used against him and he may feel legitimately guilty. Trying to get the objector to do this is a clever manipulative trick, because:
If he does not, he can be accused of lying or covering up because everyone sins so often (1 John 1:8; James 3:2). The objector may then be accused further of ‘obstinacy’.
If he does confess, then the abusive leaders can distract the focus of the meeting from the serious sin of the organisation or leader to whatever has been confessed. The confidence of the objector may also be weakened.
During the discussion, the abusive leaders may try to legitimise their authority through dubious theology. Any attempt to debate this or other ethical issues related to the objection will not be tolerated. The objective of the meeting again is not to find truth, but to silence the objector.
Another tactic is for the interrogators to provoke the objector to anger with false accusations and then accuse them of being angry. If the objector shows signs of frustration, he may be accused of ‘bitterness’.
By attacking the objector personally, mistreating and slandering him, rather than discussing his concerns, the abusive leaders lay the groundwork for more potential further accusations. The objector must now show even more restraint in raising his objections, lest he be accused of ‘taking revenge’ for personal reasons, rather than those of the public good. The leaders move attention off themselves and onto the person making the objections. Hence the saying ‘the best defence is a good offence’.
THE THREAT AND ULTIMATUM
At the end of the meeting, which may last several hours, the objector will be given threats and an ultimatum to shut up or leave the ministry. The ultimatum may include methods to control the objector, that will have been agreed by the leaders beforehand. The abusive ministry leaders want the objector to come under their control. They can do this for example by setting up a structure which they invite the objector to join or alternatively demanding that he 'be discipled' or 'counselled'. Obviously, the point of such a 'structure' or 'discipling' or 'counselling' is to change his mind or alternatively intimidate him into shutting up.
If the objector at a later time tries to clear his name either by explaining or apologising for whatever accusations have been made, this will be fruitless. The issue is that the ministry leaders are not interested in the truth. They just want to silence the objector. The abusive leaders may be too busy to meet again. Alternatively, the objector must waste his time trying to meet with each of them individually. The point is that the ministry doesn't want to know the truth, because that might be painful and cause them to have to change their behaviour. The only thing they want is for the objector to withdraw his objections and shut up.
By this time, the objectors mind will be focused on defending themselves rather than the original purpose of the meeting, which was to discuss his objection. He is now in a vulnerable position to agree to shut up.
Now most people have no idea that the leaders they respect and look up to can be manipulative and abusive. But these things happen in ministries as with some families and also romantic relationships. So, unprepared the victim/objector may be in a state of shock and think that they may truly have done something wrong - which they need to try remedy.
An easy threat is that the leadership will publicise the abusive false accusations. Others, not knowing that they are from an abusive ministry or otherwise in denial may believe them.
ALTERNATING TO FLATTERY AND CONCILIATION
If the above approach does not work, and the objector is not intimidated by the abusive behaviour but persists with objections, then the abusive leaders may either escalate the abusiveness or alternatively shift to conciliation and flattery. This is similar to an abusive husband who beats his wife and then the next day tries to romance her so that she forgives him.
After such abuse, the objector/victim will often be so relieved by the shift to conciliation that he will accept anything rather than re-raise his issues of objection. The issues can thus just be sidelined by evasion and doublespeak without the need for the use of additional threats. The objector may be offered some benefits from the ministry in exchange for dropping the issue.
Nevertheless, if the objector does persist, the 'Good cop-bad cop' manipulation technique will shift back to abusiveness. If they cannot silence the objector then they will have to find a way to discredit them (using true or false accusations) or otherwise evict them from the ministry.
ETHICAL PROBLEMS
Now there are serious ethical problems with the above approach:
It is deceptive to invite someone to a 'friendly' meeting, which is actually an ambush.
It is manipulative to forbid bringing a witness. This then gives the abusive leaders two further tools of manipulation. Firstly they can deny their abusiveness at the meeting; and Secondly, they can later accuse the objector of anything having happened at the meeting, for example being 'disrespectful' - and then use this to institute disciplinary procedures against him.
It is unfair to criticise without giving a person the opportunity to defend themselves.
It does not follow any biblical disciplinary or grievance procedure.
It is clearly aimed at frustrating biblical procedure being used to try to hold the leaders accountable. Because of this it can be manipulated and also the victim cannot legitimately proceed to the next stage of church discipline, because they have no witness to the discussion. Thus the abusive leaders are protected, while the objector is vulnerable.
It frustrates the opportunity to resolve the concerns of the objector in a reasonable way. In this way, either it will be suppressed altogether – or alternatively escalated if he decides to pursue it. Either method is usually unhealthy.
The above methods are classic abusive manipulation techniques developed by the communists to try to break people who dissented with communism. With the communists they were usually successful. This is classic brainwashing methodology. Communist methodology should not be tolerated in Christian ministries.
An atmosphere of ungodly fear develops in the ministry, and less courageous people learn that they should not challenge the autocratic leadership. Then more hypocrisy and abusiveness is tolerated.
It is a way of 'finding out' more information from the objector so that any future real disciplinary or grievance procedure can be frustrated by cover up or false accusations against the objector.
The goal of silencing the objector can be achieved by the following mechanisms:
The objector genuinely is convinced by the abuse of the leaders that he is in the wrong and needs to repent. (brainwashing)
The objector leaves the ministry.
The objector is intimidated into silence.
The objector agrees to participate in the recommended leadership structure, counselling or 'discipleship', by which he is then further manipulated.
All of the above constitute unethical manipulation.
The abuse of trust of position as a ministry undermines respect for the office of other good ministry leaders.
Such false accusations can do serious psychological damage, especially to an emotionally weak person.
The leaders are de-facto judging their own case, where they have a conflict of interest. Effectively, the disciplinary process is inverted and reversed. Rather, if it cannot be resolved privately, outside mediation should be brought in.
The leaders have pre-determined an outcome which they want to manipulate the victim/objector to accept.
The biggest problem with the above is that most of the time it is effective. Once all objectors are silenced and the ministry is in denial, then all types of hypocrisy and abusiveness can flourish. The climate has been created where scandal can fester and grow.
WHY DO OTHERWISE GOOD LEADERS BEHAVE LIKE THIS?
Many people will have a difficulty with understanding how leaders who are otherwise often nice people can use such manipulation and thus not want to believe it. One must understand that in abusive families, the father is usually outwardly a nice person, but sometimes something triggers his abusiveness, for example alcohol. The dynamic is similar in abusive ministries. In this case, the trigger is a threat to power. Abusive leaders are driven by a love of power. Any attempt to take it away will elicit a violent reaction. To those who don't threaten their power, they will be nice people. Abusiveness on various levels can become part of a culture of a ministry.
So-called Christian ministry driven by a lust for power, fame, money, success or anything else worldly is actually idolatry. Leaders can shift from good spiritual motivation to worldly motivation without realising it.
There is also the issue of presuppositions. All denominations read the same Bible, yet their members come to different conclusions from it – because they start with different assumptions. Usually one of those assumptions is that my denomination is right - or alternatively that the error is not important. A hunt is made for scriptures seeming to defend the denominational position and those against it are ignored. In the same way, most people in abusive ministries assume the leader is right. Thus any evidence showing the leader is wrong is ignored or trivialised. A hunt is made for evidence to discredit the objector and the evidence he presents is ignored.
Nevertheless, beyond this, there is a culture of denial. Ministries don't want to admit they or their leaders have behavioural problems. It leads to fundamental painful questions. It is much easier to pretend nothing is wrong. In the same way most alcoholics refuse to admit they are alcoholics. The first step in coming right is to acknowledge they have a problem.
False accusations repeated often start to be believed. The abusive leaders are likely to have previously discussed the issue in the absence of the objector. Any number of stories or accusations or half-truths can be raised at such meetings without the objector having opportunity to know them or defend himself. The leaders want to believe these, because it is much easier than considering the possibility that their ministry is unethical/hypocritical etc.
Elitism in many ministries creates a spiritual blindness. Anyone below the level in the hierarchy is simply ignored or at best treated like a child. Their concerns are treated as personal worries rather than real problems with the ministry.
Such ministries develop a culture where leaders are obligated to defend each other rather than investigate the truth.
In most ministries, leaders use the senior leader as an ethical guideline, thus no one questions his behaviour. If invited to such an abusive interrogation, they just assume the procedure is acceptable and that the objector is a troublemaker needing to be 'sorted out'.
There is no moral feedback to the abusive leader, and he becomes more and more like a problem child who never matures due to lack of discipline.
As with abusive families, also, there is usually a culture of silence. The whole family knows, but they want the family to stick together and keep their social reputation - so they say nothing. Often the abused are financial dependent on the abuser. The same in ministries. Money is used as a tool to manipulate and control people. Anyone who breaks the 'no talk' rule, will in both abusive families and abusive ministries be usually accused of insanity.
As with abusive families, most abusive leaders have been mentored by another abusive leader – and thus think that the behaviour is ‘not so bad’ or even legitimate.
Similar tactics of trying to discredit a witness are commonly used in law courts - often successfully. Lawyers will interrogate a witness to try to get him to admit something that will discredit him. Nevertheless, in a law court, both parties have access to lawyers and the judge tries to be objective. In a church 'kangaroo court'/'gang up'/'abusive interrogation', there is no one being objective and no support for the objector.
If anyone thinks this is far fetched, look at the behaviour of the Pharisees and priests at the trial of Jesus - when he challenged and undermined their religious power.
Most people will not be brave enough to confront authorities that behave in the above manner - or even get near such a meeting. Thus any type of hypocrisy and abusiveness can flourish in the ministry.
The above techniques and many others have been well documented by those helping people from abusive ministries and I have seen variations on these techniques more than once first hand myself. The organisation 'Rape Action' has recommended that sexual accusations against people in ministry should be taken directly to the secular courts and not dealt with internally within ministries – citing the abuse and manipulation of church discipline. At the time, I argued against them. Unfortunately, I now think they have a point.
To read more on these abusive methods in the discipleship context go to
http://ubf-info.de/doc/pile.en.htm
And do a search for books on ‘spiritual abuse’ at www.amazon.com
The are many other tools abusive leaders use to defend themselves against accountability, but the abusive interrogation is one of the most powerful. This practice needs to be attacked and stopped, because if is successfully stopped, then the entire abuse system of abusive ministries will collapse – rather like how the Soviet Union fell apart once they stopped the government killing people and exiling them to Siberia for speaking up.
ACTION
To try to prevent abusive interrogations and other abusive behaviour:
All ministries should have a policy to ban the practice of kangaroo courts/ abusive interrogations. There should be proper channels and procedures in every ministry for dealing with both discipline and grievances in a fair way. Try to create a culture of openness.
Any leaders who have been part of such practices should repent to their victims.
Ministries which have covered up sin in this way need to repent both of covering up sin and for the sin itself.
All Christians should be taught their rights and the proper discipline and grievance procedure to follow in terms of Matthew 18 and Acts 6.
Anyone who discovers they have been invited to a ministry 'kangaroo court''/ 'gang up' or abusive interrogation should walk out immediately. There is no benefit in dialogue in such circumstances. Anything a person says may later be used against them. They should then re-convene the meeting at a later date with witnesses.
Christians should be taught to beware of abusive and unethical leaders and hold them accountable rather than blindly following authority.
Christian leaders should avoid symbols and behaviours of spiritual elitism, which make them unapproachable and thus their ministries unaccountable.
Leaders should withdraw support from other leaders who behave in an abusive manner.
If you are raising an objection to the ethical behaviour of your ministry, you must chose your witnesses from outside of the salaried employees of the ministries. Financially dependent people will almost always defend their employers (otherwise they lose their job stupid!). Preferably chose a witness from outside the ministry.
Anyone who has been a victim of spiritual abuse in the above or other ways or is otherwise interested in trying to combat it should contact me and I will email you some literature that will help you.
If you are a leader:
Consider whether you may have defensively used or participated in such methods in the past – possibly without realising it. If this is the case, you need to repent. You will not get away with it forever. Remember Jesus warnings of God’s judgement against abusive religious leaders (Matthew 23).
Examine your own heart, motivations and life to see whether you have developed the fear of man (Matthew 10:28), turning aside from your first love (Revelation 2:4) and the love of money (1 Timothy 6:11).
Missionaries going to communist countries or other hostile governments should practice the skills of combating abusive interrogation before leaving - as the techniques are the same.
Philip Rosenthal
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30 comments:
Thanks for this Joel...it's about time someone stepped-up prayerfully against the abuses of "Truth Seeker Bob".
As an Ex-member of FCC, this truly was a refreshing glass of Ice cold lemonade. Sure beats the heck out blindly gulping down the Kool-Aid!
Our pray is that even more people's eyes will be opened, and at the same time bring Morey down to his knees in repentance, before anymore families are maligned. May our Sovereign Lord's will be done.
You are in our prayers!
~joey
Soli Deo Gloria
I used to go there a while ago, not sure if you remember. Anyway, all this stuff is pretty interesting and really, really sad. I hope this all turns out with someone repenting and reconciliation coming about.
-Sam
Amen Sam.
I stumbled on this site from a link from the OC Weekly.
You are doing the right thing. There are several books on the Serial Bully and the current structure you are describing fits the profile.
www.bullyoffline.com is an excellent resource, too.
I really appreciated your detailing out the kangaroo court procedures. This same type of thing can happen in workplaces as well.
May you find strength and peace in this journey.
Well written article.
I never met the man but watched a youtube video and discerned that the love of Christ does not live in him nor does he seek to glorify God rather boast about his self proclaimed mastery of the word of God which I think he converts in to a ton of useless babble. The simple gospel won my heart not PHD level arguments. I think he doesn't know Christ and therefore cannot clearly represent Him so he babbles on for eternity in his arrogance.
My wife and I were first time visitors at FCC on the Sunday when Dr.Morey first spoke concerning Clark Gallagher and his departure..(I believe this was 3-4 yrs ago). It was quite surreal for us. On that day he also spoke about the fund-raising needs and as I recall something about not having enough money for renting the church. My initial reaction was "sympathy," and a desire to "help" but my wife saw right through him and we never returned to that church. Praise God for godly women with discernment. But I must say, the Dr.is one very good con artist.
Well your first visit was my last of 2007 in Irvine, I've left a few other post on older blogg's to see if Joel still monitors this site. If so Larry Jenkins is trying to reach Joel Hughes. cprTheology@g mail.com
My heart goes out to Anne Morey who died on June 3, 2012, on her 40th anniversary. She was diving in a rock quarry. Her husband reports that he took 20 minutes to go put more weights on after she said she would meet him at the bottom. What is the cardinal rule of diving? Being certified divers, they would both know that rule. It happened in Florida. So sad.
The cardinal rule of diving is to never dive alone. The circumstances are very strange.
Seems to me you are whinning, moaning and complaining about things that could better be left withuin the local church but youve made tyourslef the victim and we are to beleive that ALL the sin is Morey and none of it belngs in your court. Your heart seems to be bitter and angry and whats most disconcerting is that you feel as if you have to vent to the world about issues thats some Im sure are true but you bear the blame to. Yiu are dividng and bringing disrepute to the church. Again Morey may need to repsnt but so do you. God will judge you but airing this in public like this. Sickening how preofessing Christians feels as if theyu are a guide to others by besmirching their character but stating htier doing it in love. Things are said about my pastor that are just wrong and some are may be true since no pastor is a perfect man and they too are progressively being sanctified. Christians need to STOP bloggin and start preaching the gospel. Thats all I have to say in the matter.
I have seen this operation myself and it is exactly as the Author says. I too was the object and of falsehood and character denunciation by what can only be a type of church cult! The strategy is always the same and your always going against a wonderful preacher who has the hand of God upon him in the minds of the adoring membership. A mans ministry and reputation always precedes any glaring fault that the church might even consider. Ya don't mess around with God's man?
Pastors are not exempt from reproof and correction no matter how gifted and useful they may be. They are subject to the brethren and the Church like all other members. Any Pastor who believes that he is above reproof and even rebuke no matter how respectfully and tactfully done according to scripture is not called of God. We must not confuse oratory or intellectual prowess for calling which stands apart from personal character and good behavior expected of a Church's Office holders. There must be both. Sadly too many Churches simply choose not to deal with errant or sinning leaders prominent in Christian circles for fear they may be interfering with God's work and the continued success of the ministry. Pastors who command that kind of attention and have the pulpit can easily stir the membership against any identified troublemaker? Oh they love the reformation and the courage of the reformers but we will have no Luther's here in "my Church"! Who do you think you are the pastor? The audacity? Pastors will do what they believe they have to in order to save their reputations and ministry? So Brethren don't be surprised if you find yourself in such an entanglement? Your motives will come into question. Sometimes they will hound you even after you leave a Church to seek another place of worship. It's as if they are hell bent on ruining your life and discrediting you among other Christians as well? This sounds like another sad story that many others have gone through.
It's so weird. Ann was such a dear, loving, and loyal wife. The circumstances of her death are very suspicious and I think there needs to be an investigation.
Thank you for your courage and detailed information re: Dr. Morey. I engaged he and his ministry while I was a Foursquare Church pastor. I had listened to some of his tape series and only had a question to ask. Upon a telephone conversation, I was ridiculed and mocked for having been a Foursquare pastor who taught lies; through a bad religion....Foursquare. That wasn't even what I had called about. It was just a verbal attack! Very weird.
Unfortunately, this type of behavior, behind the scenes, at most churches exists today. I recently attended and volunteered at large So. Baptist church in Las Vegas. Behind the scenes, all of the assisting pastors referred to the senior pastor as "the pope". As a retired pastor, I've seen this at the majority of churches that exist today. I'm referring to well over 90%! This is not what Jesus or the apostle Paul taught. This is, unfortunately, the modern day church.
I would like to start a church here in Las Vegas, independent, that has transparency, focuses on scripture, and the heart of a loving pastor who lives out that life. A famous pastor that I once mentored under, had these words to say about pastors: "You reproduce who you are, and the church reflects that into the culture". This is, the end of the church age.
Thank you,
Pastor Fred, Henderson, NV
I went to FCC in 2006-2007ish. I was in college. There was a church division around that time when a leader guy with a British accent left, and the letter he wrote was mocked. I don't remember his name,just the accent. I'd be very interested in seeing that letter he wrote. I moved to nor-cal in mid 2007 and when I returned to visit,the church had relocated to orange from Irvine. I remember feeling a really weird vibe at the new place. Dr.Bob sat on this gaudy chair that looked like a throne. It was creepy. All the people seemed fake and robotic. Felt like a cult. Dr.Bob tried setting up my friend with his son. She wasn't interested.
Ginger...I can see why your friend was not interested in Bob Morey's son, since John Morey is a total geek. I attended Morey's organizations from the time they met at Lakewood City Hall, the Sequoia athletic club in Buena Park, the failed attempt to buy property in Huntington Beach, and finally the over leveraged purchase of property in Irvine which was ultimately flipped to Marriott Hotels. Morey is one abusive character. How fitting that after his wife's death, he bought a half million dollar condo in Las Vegas.
I attended FCC for 7 years. Longer than anyone posting here. Dr Bob might very well be the greatest theologian of all time since Paul himself and THAT can be a big problem when you are that good! And I believe that was the problem. He was so good that everybody tried to get close to him. And all the people close to him fought off the people trying to get close. Compounding the problem is that Dr. Bob had no talent what so ever at managing. He was a theologian and that's all he knew. He could barley tie hes own shoes.
Dr Bob never purposefully deceived or tricked anyone. Even my best friends to this day many years after the church has gone think he did. But i know my friends I and I think they are wrong. It is my friends who are wrong. So I am being fare. The truth is the truth no matter what.
Dr Bobs fault was that he is a bad manager not a bad person. I was there for many year.
I knew "Dr. Bod" and engaged him in conversation more than once. I was asked to attend a birthday party for him by Ann and I gave him a framed photo of the Twin Towers. My husband and I were invited to a Dim Sum dinner at a local restaurant with his entourage. I benefited from his teaching, BUT...there were quite a few things that bothered me and the death of Ann Morey made me think about it even more.
Those who have sat in on any of his sermons know that he could viciously attack someone he disagreed with. Many a time it went too far and you were left with either jumping over the red flag or leaving. Most of us just jumped over.
Morey is all about the money. The worldliness of his actions spoke volumes. Again, we jumped over the red flag. When I heard the news of Ann's death, it didn't add up in my mind. I have to wonder if he benefited financially in any way and I think it should be investigated. Just say'in. Afterwards, he allegedly purchased a half million dollar condo in Las Vegas.
And lastly, he had FBI/CIA connections as an advisor on Islam. I was introduced to one of his bodyguards. What that has to do with anything, I don't know. I can guess, but I can never prove it, so we leave it there.
I'm only commenting because I can't shake this feeling about Ann's death. What the real story is, we may never know, but since when do certified divers go it alone? More questions than answers. And by the way, I met and attended his meetings when he first moved from Pennsylvania and was teaching at Johanna Michelson's church.
Sorry, I meant "Dr. Bob".
One more comment. There is something I had forgotten and I think it might be pertinent - Dr. Morey and Ann were on an Islamic assassination list according to Bob. I do NOT think Morey had anything to do with Anne's death, but if they were being surveiled? So many bits and pieces.
Greetings. I have known Dr. Morey for a while as he lived here in Las Vegas, Nevada after the death of his wife. I have enjoyed his works and his sermons on his Firefighters for Christ tapes. My high school friend happens to be one of his direct students and introduced me to him. I thought he was very nice at first as he was warm and even gave me a $100 to help me while during the time I first met him I was unemployed for a long period of time. He wanted to personally teach me and that was when things got a little ugly. He would tell me consistently how I did not know Greek, did not Theology or Philosophy. I did not like that approach first of all. I have been an Apologist for 20 years and knew the doctrine of Trinity very well by the time I met Dr. Morey. I also had a fairly good handle of Trinity. He gave me one of his books to start teaching me and I mentioned that I did not agree with him on free will (He is a Calvinist) and everything sort of went down from there. He felt attacked when I would send him my summaries and feedback on each chapter to show that I took the time to read his book. He felt like I was trying to teach him (Isn't the job of a christian to teach and learn from each other?). He blocked me and defended me on FB for further disagreeing with him on Calvinism. One of his FB friends who friended me also defended me after Dr. Morey defriended me. Your blog helped confirmed that he does not like being questioned or challenged. I guess I was not crazy at all in thinking I was the only one thinking that. Its a common complaint.
Elephant in the room...ALL of this energy in conversation is about what? One thing we all know to be true, if there is smoke, there is fire! People do not magically wake up and decide they will attack or seek justice if there is not some type of wrongdoing. Sure, context can be lost like any domestic dispute, but there is a problem!
Noble intentions can be skewed over time. Watch the movie, Bridge On the River Kwai. I will not share why. but if you watch this, you should know what the message is, that being a noble intention that got skewed because of idolatry--ego, pride, power, lust, etc.
One thing I am very concerned about is the pastor writing books and doing conferences. Some are gaining royalties for ministry and money and power and celebrity change a man! Also, if you write a lot of books it is very difficult to admit you can be in error. Now what? Pull all those books? Pride!!! Scary stuff.
My wife came across this, this morning....
James Sovereign Grace is with Robert Morey and 13 others.
1 hr ·
My dear friend of many years, mentor, and brother in the Lord went home to Jesus and his wife Annie today. (01/05/2019)
"Well done good and faithful servant"....you are HOME.
Love you Dr, Bob.
Posted by: Michael C.
Anyone have Morey discuss male genitalia, bj, etc., with them? I think that drove a lot away from the Orange County church.
Dr. Robert A. Morey kicked the bucket on January 5, 2019, in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Dr.Bob:He is a very kind man.
This is Larry Jenkins, yes for several years I was trying to locate Joel. This was my 1st hearing of Dr. Morey’s passing; I heard about Anne’s almost immediately and knew about Dr. Bob moving to Vegas, but was not sure I wanted to look him up.
As I started to read this Article I knew it had to be Clark or Joel, possibly Chuck, but I don’t remember him ever speaking. No body else had the right or permission to say what was said, it was my suspicion all along, but you 3 did a great job covering for a great man who like the rest of us, Sinners saved by Grace. I thank God for his teachings as I enjoyed and learned much from Clark and Joel. Lol, I was vain enough to think it was my paper on TALON vs. TULIP is was caused you to to leave, not knowing what all you were going through at that time.
Anyway you almost had it right, my email is cprTheology@gmail.com
Bob was Evil ask his step daughter whom he beat to death finally at 17 mths old miracle tho she survived Then ask the mother of step daughter oh that's right you can't Nancy Morey was murdered age 20 but called an accident by coroner
Or maybe ask Ann oh that's right there was an accident while scuba diving RIP Ann I'm so sorry you heard the conversation between bob n step daughter she was asking him why did he do the things he did he replied times were very evil she sobbed and Bob abruptly said I'll see you in hell n hung up the half sister to tortured step daughter child battered syndrome brain damage comatose also bob's daughter
Later tells her that she ruined their marriage ann was apparently listening on the other end.Someone needs to contact the beaten step daughter for more details gruesome pure Evil
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